1000 HP system fitted next Monday...
02-22-2008, 11:56 PM
#167
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Just for fun, I got this off of one of our discussion threads...since we're talking about Top Fuel:
"DEFINITION OF ACCELERATION" ... Fun Stuff !
(courtesy of KB Performance Pistons)
One top fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower than the first 4 rows of stock cars at the Daytona 500.
It takes just 15/100ths of a second for all 6,000+ horsepower of an NHRA Top Fuel dragster engine to reach the rear wheels.
Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1-1/2 gallons of nitro methane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate with 25% less energy being produced.
A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the dragster's supercharger.
[you should have added how much hp is really does take to drive the blower for this comparison...]
With 3,000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition.
Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle.
At the stoichiometric (stoichiometry: methodology and technology by which quantities of reactants and products in chemical reactions are determined) 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture of nitro methane, the flame front temperature measures 7,050 deg F.
Nitro methane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.
Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of an arc welder in each cylinder.
[and they (the spark plugs) still regularly get extinguished (putting out a cylinder)]
Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After halfway, the engine is dieseling from compression, plus the glow of exhaust valves at 1,400 deg F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.
If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.
[it is rare the an engine failure lifts the head or splits the block. failure (hydraulic) usually results in lifting the blower. blocks are required to be billet aluminum for several years now, limiting their failure rate. catastrophic failure usually takes out the bottom end.]
In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds, dragsters must accelerate an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph (well before half-track), the launch acceleration approaches 8G's.
Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading this sentence.
Top fuel engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to light! Including the burnout, the engine must only survive 900 revolutions under load.
[540 and 900 revolutions? try 9000 under load.]
The redline is actually quite high at 9,500 rpm.
Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimate $1,000.00 per second.
[in 1975 when Garlits set the record at 250mph, it cost him $500 per run. He one the Snowbird Nationals with 7 runs. The purse for that race was $2500.]
The current top fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.428 seconds for the quarter mile (11/12/06, Tony Schumacher, at Pomona, CA). The top speed record is 336.15 mph as measured over the last 66' of the run (05/25/05 Tony Schumacher, at Hebron, OH).
[They have run faster and quicker since those records were set, but not backed up to allow for new record recordings. this may change this year due to the increase in nitro percentage.]
Putting all of this into perspective:
You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a top fuel dragster is staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through the gears and blast across the starting line and pass the dragster at an honest 200 mph. The "tree" goes green for both of you at that moment.
The dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds, the dragster catches and passes yo u. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.
Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he passed you within a mere 1,320 foot long race course.
... and that my friend, is ACCELERATION!
"DEFINITION OF ACCELERATION" ... Fun Stuff !
(courtesy of KB Performance Pistons)
One top fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower than the first 4 rows of stock cars at the Daytona 500.
It takes just 15/100ths of a second for all 6,000+ horsepower of an NHRA Top Fuel dragster engine to reach the rear wheels.
Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1-1/2 gallons of nitro methane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate with 25% less energy being produced.
A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the dragster's supercharger.
[you should have added how much hp is really does take to drive the blower for this comparison...]
With 3,000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition.
Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle.
At the stoichiometric (stoichiometry: methodology and technology by which quantities of reactants and products in chemical reactions are determined) 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture of nitro methane, the flame front temperature measures 7,050 deg F.
Nitro methane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.
Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of an arc welder in each cylinder.
[and they (the spark plugs) still regularly get extinguished (putting out a cylinder)]
Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After halfway, the engine is dieseling from compression, plus the glow of exhaust valves at 1,400 deg F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.
If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.
[it is rare the an engine failure lifts the head or splits the block. failure (hydraulic) usually results in lifting the blower. blocks are required to be billet aluminum for several years now, limiting their failure rate. catastrophic failure usually takes out the bottom end.]
In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds, dragsters must accelerate an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph (well before half-track), the launch acceleration approaches 8G's.
Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading this sentence.
Top fuel engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to light! Including the burnout, the engine must only survive 900 revolutions under load.
[540 and 900 revolutions? try 9000 under load.]
The redline is actually quite high at 9,500 rpm.
Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimate $1,000.00 per second.
[in 1975 when Garlits set the record at 250mph, it cost him $500 per run. He one the Snowbird Nationals with 7 runs. The purse for that race was $2500.]
The current top fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.428 seconds for the quarter mile (11/12/06, Tony Schumacher, at Pomona, CA). The top speed record is 336.15 mph as measured over the last 66' of the run (05/25/05 Tony Schumacher, at Hebron, OH).
[They have run faster and quicker since those records were set, but not backed up to allow for new record recordings. this may change this year due to the increase in nitro percentage.]
Putting all of this into perspective:
You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a top fuel dragster is staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through the gears and blast across the starting line and pass the dragster at an honest 200 mph. The "tree" goes green for both of you at that moment.
The dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds, the dragster catches and passes yo u. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.
Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he passed you within a mere 1,320 foot long race course.
... and that my friend, is ACCELERATION!
Nice dialog.....but just few additions-
--Russ
02-22-2008, 11:58 PM
#168
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Why not just compare that Lingenfelter Corvette to the freaking space shuttle or a damn tomahawk missle for what thats worth. You ain't driving a dragster on the street, so therefor in my book the sport is stupid. The real thrill is streetable AUTOMOBILES running 1/4's.
Mmmm.......I guess that would include the street legal 7 second cars as well........
--Russ
02-23-2008, 12:12 AM
#169
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But just think how fast and quick a fuel car could be if the tires could hold the power of a full lock up on the clutch from the green (yellow).
theory and math will not work here, I remember when they said 200 was impossible, it was against the laws of physics.
I miss run what you brung and hope you brung enough.
Brett, I really hope you make it, but for your sake make sure that there will be no effects of losing 100 mph in one second on your body.
After flying acrobatics for many years, one word of advise, when you think your your harness is tight enough, have your crew pull it about two more inches. (my guess is you know that, just thought I would bring it up)
02-23-2008, 12:17 AM
#170
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good thinking but I do think it is wrong.
The top fuel car is at 100 in less than .8 seconds and well past 200 in 2 seconds.
Over 280 at the 660 FT mark.
I guess what I am trying to say is the acceleration is not constant.
Greg
EDIT:Anton Browns incrementals from Pomana two weeks ago.
Antron Brown's incremental times: 60ft-0.862 sec., 330ft-2.152, 660ft-3.059/278.40mph, 1,000ft-3.824
Not a record, but still stout.
The top fuel car is at 100 in less than .8 seconds and well past 200 in 2 seconds.
Over 280 at the 660 FT mark.
I guess what I am trying to say is the acceleration is not constant.
Greg
EDIT:Anton Browns incrementals from Pomana two weeks ago.
Antron Brown's incremental times: 60ft-0.862 sec., 330ft-2.152, 660ft-3.059/278.40mph, 1,000ft-3.824
Not a record, but still stout.
.862 sec............252.86 ft................................60 ft
2.152 sec...........631.25 ft..............................330 ft
3.059 sec...........897.31 ft..............................660 ft
3.824 sec..........1121.71 ft............................1000 ft
4.5 sec..............1320 ft................................... ?
Anton was still 121 ft behind at 3.8 seconds...
02-23-2008, 12:58 AM
#171
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Time................Corvette(constant 200 mph).. Anton
.862 sec............252.86 ft................................60 ft
2.152 sec...........631.25 ft..............................330 ft
3.059 sec...........897.31 ft..............................660 ft
3.824 sec..........1121.71 ft............................1000 ft
4.5 sec..............1320 ft................................... ?
Anton was still 121 ft behind at 3.8 seconds...
.862 sec............252.86 ft................................60 ft
2.152 sec...........631.25 ft..............................330 ft
3.059 sec...........897.31 ft..............................660 ft
3.824 sec..........1121.71 ft............................1000 ft
4.5 sec..............1320 ft................................... ?
Anton was still 121 ft behind at 3.8 seconds...
Just add a little hydrazine (maybe 1%), 700+ CID motors, no limits on the rear end gear, or wheel size gear and if the tires would hold it, good God how fast would they be.
Hell, just give somebody like Lee beard, Connie kallita or half a dozen others in TF or Coil in FC the go ahead to use the race pack to do more than record and records would drop like flies.
Yea, I am biased, love them fuel cars.
I might just see some of yawl in Gainesville, Atlanta, Bristol, Charlotte, but not Memphis this year. I am pissed off after last year over the treatment I got by tho local LEO's, On foot, leaving the race track, sober.
I guess I will show my displeasure with my pocket book.
Greag
02-23-2008, 01:02 AM
#172
Race Car
Mark--
A reminder that the cooling you experience is from the heat of evaporation, BTU's borrowed from the intake air charge and ultimately the surrounding metal. The sensible heat change is easy to calculate too, but changes as bottle temp drops.
... Did I say the bottle temp drops??? That means the stuff is changing state somewhere other than downstream of the nozzle, right? I had a peeky at a really pretty NOS setup last weekend. I just couldn't figure out why the install includes 1/4" OD metal lines from the bottles, going to 1/4" ID flex lines to the nozzles. And a claim of 500 HP added. It will be togh to get that much mass through those little pipes as liquid, and impossible if you are flashing to vapor upstream of the nozzles in that flex area.
Simple test-- Where does the system get cold? That's prtetty much where your state change (and max available cooling effect) will be happening. Spraying liquid into the intake will cool it --if the liquid is allowed to flash to vapor there--. That means the pressure has to drop, something you expect --because the throttle is open to atmosphere at one end of the intake pipes and the engine is sucking VAPOR in at the other end. Video show cold fog from the throttle, right? The liquid is now vapor at atmospheric pressure. At this point the DENSITY of the gas follows perfect gas law, right? Cold vapor at atmosphereic pressure. Is any liquid NOS neing drawn into the cylinders to be compressed into gas as the cylinder comes up again? It's a snow snake, Mark, your own, and it's pulling on your own leg!
Brett, I wish you all the best my friend! Maybe the 1000 degree valves will transfer enough heat to the liquid NOS that makes it to the cylinders to flash to vapor before the pistons start upwards. Maybe the fuel charge will warm up enough at that point to flash to vapor too, and maybe the plugs will ignite the mixture at the right moment. I'm no expert on NOS, obviously. I do remember a little of the physics. Not enough to argue with Mark, but generally enough to be able to teach it. To get near your stated HP goals, you'll be riding just south of supercritical in the intake charge, and that's a delicate spot beyond which there is no forgiveness. Again, good luck, be safe, and take lots of video please.
A reminder that the cooling you experience is from the heat of evaporation, BTU's borrowed from the intake air charge and ultimately the surrounding metal. The sensible heat change is easy to calculate too, but changes as bottle temp drops.
... Did I say the bottle temp drops??? That means the stuff is changing state somewhere other than downstream of the nozzle, right? I had a peeky at a really pretty NOS setup last weekend. I just couldn't figure out why the install includes 1/4" OD metal lines from the bottles, going to 1/4" ID flex lines to the nozzles. And a claim of 500 HP added. It will be togh to get that much mass through those little pipes as liquid, and impossible if you are flashing to vapor upstream of the nozzles in that flex area.
Simple test-- Where does the system get cold? That's prtetty much where your state change (and max available cooling effect) will be happening. Spraying liquid into the intake will cool it --if the liquid is allowed to flash to vapor there--. That means the pressure has to drop, something you expect --because the throttle is open to atmosphere at one end of the intake pipes and the engine is sucking VAPOR in at the other end. Video show cold fog from the throttle, right? The liquid is now vapor at atmospheric pressure. At this point the DENSITY of the gas follows perfect gas law, right? Cold vapor at atmosphereic pressure. Is any liquid NOS neing drawn into the cylinders to be compressed into gas as the cylinder comes up again? It's a snow snake, Mark, your own, and it's pulling on your own leg!
Brett, I wish you all the best my friend! Maybe the 1000 degree valves will transfer enough heat to the liquid NOS that makes it to the cylinders to flash to vapor before the pistons start upwards. Maybe the fuel charge will warm up enough at that point to flash to vapor too, and maybe the plugs will ignite the mixture at the right moment. I'm no expert on NOS, obviously. I do remember a little of the physics. Not enough to argue with Mark, but generally enough to be able to teach it. To get near your stated HP goals, you'll be riding just south of supercritical in the intake charge, and that's a delicate spot beyond which there is no forgiveness. Again, good luck, be safe, and take lots of video please.
For every gram of refrigerant (and also nitrous oxide) evaporated , there is a huge amount of heat energy consumed. If Brett is injecting nitrous into the engine at a large enough volume, he should be able to keep most of it in liquid form long enough.
Dan
'86 928S 5-spd w/LSD
02-23-2008, 01:57 AM
#173
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In the AC charging, you purposefully put gas into the system to avoid damaging the compressor. The cylinder is cold because you need to add heat to get the liquid to vaporize. The cylinder is cold because it needs heat from somewhere. Like NOS, you can predict the temperature vs vapor pressure. Also knowing the latent heat of evaporation (that's the 'huge amount of heat energy consumed', you can quickly figure out what the discharge pressure (and flow) of your gas will be under specific conditions. Note that the heat energy isn't "consumed" but rather "converted" as the specific volume increases as the heat is added. It would seem the same consideration is needed for NOS going into the 8-cylinder "compressor". If you send a cold fog of NOS vapor, you need to have enough heat available in the cylinder to cause the droplets in the fog to flash to gas. As the cylinder pressure rises as the piston comes up on compression stroke, the state change to vapor is slowed by the increasing pressure. If enough of the vapor is still droplets there's risk of hydro-locking the engine. Same risk you face when liquid charging the AC with the compressor running. Further the colder temps of the intake charge can keep some of the fuel charge from flashing to vapor. You will be adding some 4x the normal fuel flow (by mass) to get the +1000 horsepower that Brett wants. Some of that may still be liquid. Pushing the NOS to the point where the liquid is injected without flashing, where part of that charge flashes and cools the fuel to the point where it stays liquid, that's where you need to be very carefull. At that point just shy of supercritical, that's where there's more liquid than there is space in the chamber, you can make max power. Beyond that point there are bent rods, broken pistons, and rotating engine bits suddenly ballistic. The rear wheels will want to slow down n a hurry, right about the time the oil from the sump drains onto them. Car will be sideways and rolling before you could get your hand anywhere near the 'chute release ****. We've all seen the funny-car videos where a high-horsepower run goes very wrong, and the back of the car suddenly starts whipping to the side on uneven traction due to oil dump. Ouch!
02-23-2008, 09:49 AM
#174
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02-23-2008, 02:31 PM
#175
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Friend of mine has an 8 second car on the street
Even though hes in the UK, LOL As its American....a Dodge Challenger with LOTS of upgrades, heads.valves, tranny etc etc.
And he runs low 8`s..
All the best Brett
02-23-2008, 05:43 PM
#176
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02-25-2008, 05:23 PM
#178
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ok its monday night here in the UK, whats happened to brett? has he blown his cylinder heads through the bonnet of the S2 somewhere north of sheffield on the M1???
02-25-2008, 06:09 PM
#179
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Well I hear the pentagon claims they successfully shot down a failing satellite....maybe Brett got airborn after all.....
