The boards opinion of Honda.
02-08-2003, 06:24 PM
#1
Nordschleife Master
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The boards opinion of Honda.
What are the boards opinion of the Honda CVCC and VTEC engine designs?
Everything I can read on web sites looks good, but has a kinda newspaper-ish air to it.
If the CVCC design was as good as the web pages say, what ever happened to it? It seems awful complex. An additional chamber in the combustion chamber, extra intake tubeing, and intake valve. I don't recall new cars being advertized as equiped with it. Did EFI make it obselete?
To me, the Honda VTEC system seems better than Porsche's varo-cam. More expensive, and heavier, but better, I think.
Everything I can read on web sites looks good, but has a kinda newspaper-ish air to it.
If the CVCC design was as good as the web pages say, what ever happened to it? It seems awful complex. An additional chamber in the combustion chamber, extra intake tubeing, and intake valve. I don't recall new cars being advertized as equiped with it. Did EFI make it obselete?
To me, the Honda VTEC system seems better than Porsche's varo-cam. More expensive, and heavier, but better, I think.
02-08-2003, 06:36 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
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Here's a VTEC system for pushrod engines. Only varies timing by 3 degrees, as I recall, but changes lift from 1.1:1 to 1.7:1
<a href="http://www.hotrocker.com" target="_blank">www.hotrocker.com</a>
<a href="http://www.hotrocker.com" target="_blank">www.hotrocker.com</a>
02-08-2003, 08:12 PM
#3
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Different companies come up with different systems because they don't want to pay royalties on the designs. The VarioCam system is OK, but the sliding-pin on/off for the higher lift means a pretty hard divide between low-end and hig-end performance. A gradual transition would be a little better, but somebody else already makes that I'm sure.
I remember hearing that GM files for hundreds of patents a day, so you know that the players are very protective of the systems they come up with.
I remember hearing that GM files for hundreds of patents a day, so you know that the players are very protective of the systems they come up with.
02-08-2003, 09:07 PM
#4
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dr bob-
Look at the link. That one is patented, and has four positions rather than the VTec's 2. Eaton is trying to develop a hydraulic system for GM, rumor is it's in trouble. Variocam has been offered to others, problem is it is fairly complicated & expensive. As far as I'm aware Hotrocker is the only after market, and only pushrod sytem. Also works on SOHC.
I have had it on my wife's Tahoe for a couple of years now, so I know it isn't vaporware.
Look at the link. That one is patented, and has four positions rather than the VTec's 2. Eaton is trying to develop a hydraulic system for GM, rumor is it's in trouble. Variocam has been offered to others, problem is it is fairly complicated & expensive. As far as I'm aware Hotrocker is the only after market, and only pushrod sytem. Also works on SOHC.
I have had it on my wife's Tahoe for a couple of years now, so I know it isn't vaporware.
02-08-2003, 09:43 PM
#5
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Sterling Gee was trying to do a variable valve timing setup on his 928...
<a href="http://www.928sg.com" target="_blank">http://www.928sg.com</a>
Site seems to be down right now...
Here are some pictures and info:
<a href="http://www.928s4.com/Other928Pics/sterling.htm" target="_blank">http://www.928s4.com/Other928Pics/sterling.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.928sg.com" target="_blank">http://www.928sg.com</a>
Site seems to be down right now...
Here are some pictures and info:
<a href="http://www.928s4.com/Other928Pics/sterling.htm" target="_blank">http://www.928s4.com/Other928Pics/sterling.htm</a>
02-09-2003, 01:03 AM
#6
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Sterling adapted his modified 928 heads to accept the Porsche Variocam. His problem was with the customized adjustable camshafts (not directly related to the Variocam setup).
02-09-2003, 06:27 AM
#7
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Honda's VTEC system is fascinating, but it has a few drawbacks. First of all, when the pin moves and the high lift cam lobes are engaged, the change in the engine is very abrupt. Vario-cam is not like that at all. Furthermore, high-mileage VTEC engines that have been subjected to low oil conditions or that have not had regular oil changes have developed problems with "gumming" of the little engagement pins.
As to Honda cars, in my opinion they are rather like vanilla ice cream. No thanks-
-I keep a 1976 Honda CB-750-four in my living room. It does not leak, it does not smell, and if I add gas to the tank, it will start on the second kick [yes it has an electric starter, but I don't use it]. This after sitting for several months with the engine pickled! Honda builds good machines.
Machines...or appliances?
N!
'85 S2 5 Speed
As to Honda cars, in my opinion they are rather like vanilla ice cream. No thanks-
-I keep a 1976 Honda CB-750-four in my living room. It does not leak, it does not smell, and if I add gas to the tank, it will start on the second kick [yes it has an electric starter, but I don't use it]. This after sitting for several months with the engine pickled! Honda builds good machines.
Machines...or appliances?
N!
'85 S2 5 Speed
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02-09-2003, 11:04 PM
#8
Nordschleife Master
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Personaly, I wouldn't take a Honda eighter, I like the sound of my 928, and the way people react when I say it has a V8. I also like the way it looks from the frount.
However, I can't see how you can blaim Honda for the owner forgetting to change the oil, or running it low on oil. Heck, I don't know any cars that like for that to happen!
No comments on the CVCC thing? I don't honestly understand the idea, or the system Honda used to make it. Other than the promise of higher fuel milage, lower emitions, less detonation problems, and no drawbacks, I know next to nothing.
However, I can't see how you can blaim Honda for the owner forgetting to change the oil, or running it low on oil. Heck, I don't know any cars that like for that to happen!
No comments on the CVCC thing? I don't honestly understand the idea, or the system Honda used to make it. Other than the promise of higher fuel milage, lower emitions, less detonation problems, and no drawbacks, I know next to nothing.
02-10-2003, 09:51 AM
#10
In Your Face, Ace
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Honda/Acura are awesome cars. There has been at least one Honda in our household for the past 20 years.
The VTEC system feels almost like a turbo in the higher hp vehicles.
Most will not like this story but sorry guys it's a fact. A buddy of mine with a mint '84 Euro 5-speed and me decided to run his car against my wifes '02 Acura TL-Stype. The Acura , from a dead stop, from 80mph and hit it, anyway we ran the Acura did well. The curves is where the 928 was by far superior, I could not go near the speed of the 928 in the corners, but when it came to WOT the V6 - VTEC was holding it's own with 260hp.
Honda = Great Car!
The VTEC system feels almost like a turbo in the higher hp vehicles.
Most will not like this story but sorry guys it's a fact. A buddy of mine with a mint '84 Euro 5-speed and me decided to run his car against my wifes '02 Acura TL-Stype. The Acura , from a dead stop, from 80mph and hit it, anyway we ran the Acura did well. The curves is where the 928 was by far superior, I could not go near the speed of the 928 in the corners, but when it came to WOT the V6 - VTEC was holding it's own with 260hp.
Honda = Great Car!
02-10-2003, 10:25 AM
#11
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Abby,
Not to start a pissing match here, (because that happens way too often) but I have a real hard time believing all of the TL story. Mostly because I had one try to race my 85 Euro and it was not even remotely close. It was on a freeway entrance ramp and he was trying to get by me. By 70 I was at least 3 cars ahead of him.
Again, I am not trying to start a big argument, but the facts don't add up. The Honda(Acura) weighs 3510lbs and the 928 weighs 3351lbs. The dyno numbers I have seen for the TL types S put it at about 185-190 fwhp (I have a hard time believing the claimed 260hp. That would be a 37% drivetrain loss). Now I saw 2 early 928 S Euros Dyno out this fall around 245 rwhp. The later 84-85 Euros should have a little more and the dynos of healthy ones I have seen are around 250rwhp. So that is a 60 hp difference with a 200lb weight advantage. Just the facts.
Now I am not saying that it did not happen to you, but I would tell your friend have his Euro checked. Something is probably wrong with it.
Not to start a pissing match here, (because that happens way too often) but I have a real hard time believing all of the TL story. Mostly because I had one try to race my 85 Euro and it was not even remotely close. It was on a freeway entrance ramp and he was trying to get by me. By 70 I was at least 3 cars ahead of him.
Again, I am not trying to start a big argument, but the facts don't add up. The Honda(Acura) weighs 3510lbs and the 928 weighs 3351lbs. The dyno numbers I have seen for the TL types S put it at about 185-190 fwhp (I have a hard time believing the claimed 260hp. That would be a 37% drivetrain loss). Now I saw 2 early 928 S Euros Dyno out this fall around 245 rwhp. The later 84-85 Euros should have a little more and the dynos of healthy ones I have seen are around 250rwhp. So that is a 60 hp difference with a 200lb weight advantage. Just the facts.
Now I am not saying that it did not happen to you, but I would tell your friend have his Euro checked. Something is probably wrong with it.
02-10-2003, 11:04 AM
#12
In Your Face, Ace
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I'm a liar. 
As far as having his car checked, there was a certified Porsche meachanic in the euro just in it for the ride. Neither of them could believe the performance of the Acura.
My question is, how do you know the on ramp "kill" story was a legitimate race? We stopped re-started several times and even did you go then I'll go and see who can run the other down.
Just the facts. No ****.
If I was closer to The Land of Cheese I would be glad to show you.
As far as having his car checked, there was a certified Porsche meachanic in the euro just in it for the ride. Neither of them could believe the performance of the Acura.
My question is, how do you know the on ramp "kill" story was a legitimate race? We stopped re-started several times and even did you go then I'll go and see who can run the other down.
Just the facts. No ****.
If I was closer to The Land of Cheese I would be glad to show you.
02-10-2003, 11:14 AM
#13
In Your Face, Ace
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Also,
How do you explain the published 1/4 mile time being 14.3 for the Stype and 15.2 for the '84 Euro shark?
Kind of goes against the Dyno statistics you pointed out....true?
How do you explain the published 1/4 mile time being 14.3 for the Stype and 15.2 for the '84 Euro shark?
Kind of goes against the Dyno statistics you pointed out....true?
02-10-2003, 11:41 AM
#14
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Hey Abby,
You sure you didn't forget to tell us about that little Tobasco additive...J/K LMAO
I for one think that Honda's are exellent cars and the reliablity factor speaks for itself, I actually don't think that any Honda made can be compared to the 928 only because they are two totally different worlds, IMHO.
The only fault I see in the Honda's is trying to keep them around, My wife has a 2000 Civic EX and it was stolen 3 times in a matter of a year. It's only got 16,000 miles on it because it spent 5 months in the shop because we couldn't even get a thief that was good enough to steal it and keep it or at least total it out. There's just something about when someone steals your car that just makes it feel tainted.
I was also wondering if you had any Pic's of your car that I could access, because I recently had the opportunity to see Bill's Supercharged Koeing up close and man that is a Beautiful car. I am hoping to get to take a ride next weekend.
By the way is Tipatina's still around? Man, I remember having some good times there.
Take care,
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
You sure you didn't forget to tell us about that little Tobasco additive...J/K LMAO
I for one think that Honda's are exellent cars and the reliablity factor speaks for itself, I actually don't think that any Honda made can be compared to the 928 only because they are two totally different worlds, IMHO.
The only fault I see in the Honda's is trying to keep them around, My wife has a 2000 Civic EX and it was stolen 3 times in a matter of a year. It's only got 16,000 miles on it because it spent 5 months in the shop because we couldn't even get a thief that was good enough to steal it and keep it or at least total it out. There's just something about when someone steals your car that just makes it feel tainted.
I was also wondering if you had any Pic's of your car that I could access, because I recently had the opportunity to see Bill's Supercharged Koeing up close and man that is a Beautiful car. I am hoping to get to take a ride next weekend.
By the way is Tipatina's still around? Man, I remember having some good times there.
Take care,
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
02-10-2003, 11:47 AM
#15
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ABBY: Thats not a stock euro 928 neither. It has headers, nology wires and sheffield spark plugs, the 928 euro claims to be a 330hp C-5 killa.
Curious George
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