Warren928

Wow, that it a nice body kit. I think it could be doable with a wing of the same curvature style. That is so unique, I like it.

Is it for sale yet? The wheels are really a matched set for that design.

Ninespub

To all that have responded to this thread and to all that have viewed, I would like to make a point about what has been written in the past 140-some posts: This is a great community of 928'rs who all enjoy the same thing: an awesome automobile. Like any religious conversation, the people on this site fit a lot of categories : some are purists, some are believers, some are ambivilent, some are agnotisic and some are atheists. Each viewpoint is exactly that; based upon their experiences, (good or bad) opinions and taste. Sometimes peoples' taste is only in their mouth (in my opinion) based upon many photos I've seen of modifications done on some 928s, but I still have watched encouraging and generally positive responses posted by those who understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If not, they might consider saying nothing.

I asked for opinions and got them; not really expecting any major polarization posts on the subject of "Whacking the Wing". However I have read some posts that border on contentious, argumentative, challenging and even alarmist. Personally, hey, WTF. I am not suicidal and I do not believe that removing my rear wing will injure anybody I love, hate or do not know driving along side me while cruising in my 928. In fact, while driving at ANY SPEED, I would be a lot more concerned about a fellow 928 owner (or any other automobile) whose 17-year old vehicals' tie rods, wheel bearings, shocks, ball joints or thin rotors, pads or tires have not been replaced.

Point is: If I were to even DREAM of driving my 928 without having replaced all of the above, the wing will not save me. If I were going to drive my 928 "like it was designed to do" such as Marc at Devek, Mark Anderson or Marc kilbort, I WOULD HAVE A WING! There are plenty of current supercars on the streets today capable of speeds equal and/or greater than my 928. Most do not have wings. The land speed record for a "stock" automoblie was set by a Porsche 928 (when it was first introduced) and I belive it did not have a wing. A whole generation of 928's to follow until the $4 arrived did not either.

All that being said, when the day is done, I will respect someone else's 928 whether its an OB, $4, GT or GTS......in any color, any wheels and with or without a rear seat, rear air (or rear wing) because it is theirs, and they can damn well do what they want to with it. If this subject brought some Wing Whackers "out of the closet", so be it. I (we) will do what we do until fashion, vision or some other concept moves us to a "new look" and that is the beauty of the 928. It is a timeless canvas of design. Everbody enjoys what they have and should be able to enjoy what they want it to be. Nuff said by me!

Paul Barrera
'91 $4 A/T,125K miles. Now under renovation after sitting for 3 years including: All new fluids, filters, hoses, fuel lines, vacuum lines belts, plugs, dist. caps & rotors, tie rods and boots, wheel bearings, shocks, ss brake lines, cross-drilled brake rotors, pads, lotsa relays and fuses, x-pipe, junk, stuff and things. Oh yeah: rear wing, rear air and rear seat delete. Then: TB & TT, full body paint, GTS mirrors, 18" Carrera III wheels, tires and new interior leather and carpet.

SeanR

Very well put Paul,

And I agree as well, whether it be blue lug nuts or sheep skin covers to orange painted speaker boxes. To each his own. I try not to be negative in my postings, unless they have personally attacked me or someone close to me, or they have shown themselves to be complete morons. (Sometimes it must be said)

I'm glad you posted this thread, the debate and education is what this forum does best, sometimes you just have to read between the lines.


/I put my wing back on btw.

Nicole

Paul: It's your car, and you can do what you like. I tried to focus on technical, and aerodynamic aspects, as the look is indeed in the eye of the beholder. I don't think it looks bad without wing, even though I personally would live with it for the reasons stated.

However, I'd like to clear up two inaccuracies in your last post:

1. Today's cars are developed specifically to not need wings or spoilers. They see wind tunnels much, much earlier in the design process, and shapes, including the underbody, are optimized in ways they could not optimize the 928 at the time. Comparing a 928s aerodynamics with a modern car that has been engineered for aerodynamics from the get-go is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. OR, in other words: Don't let the look fool you... You can't judge aerodynamics with your eyes. It's a highly technical thing...

2. The car that did the speed record had a rear wing (but no side view mirrors and narrower rear wheels). Drag without the rear wing would have been higher and not made the speed record possible. On the other hand, there are few safety concerns other than for oneself when driving on a salt flat - it might be a great way to test out different spoiler arrangements when a wind tunnel is not available.

Nicholbry

I believe he is finished with the rebody and the kits were available. He has another he is/was working on that borrowed some 911 design cues. I'm not as partial to that design as I am this one; although the front end is a bit overstated for my tastes (not visible in this pic). If you are interested do a search here for Gav928 posts and you will find more info. I think he calls his business MakoTech International or something like that. He's out of S. Africa I believe.

Ninespub

Sean: Blue lug nuts? OK............I can deal with that. I draw the line at orange speaker boxes.

Paul Barrera
'91 $4 A/T Black - (Going through refurbishment per above very long post)

Ninespub

Nicole: Thank you for your posts. They are evidence of the excellent wealth of knowledge and commitment that you and many others have of and for the 928. As a fellow business person, I'm glad that all of you support mine and yours 928s with the investment of time, money, inventory and information that keeps them looking and running right. BTW, I'll be calling you in the near future for some more junk, stuff & things I'll need to finish off my project!

Paul Barrera
'91 $4 (refurbishing yada yada yada - same as previous posts)

heinrich

There are basically two types of excellent knowledge displayed here in this thread, about the 928. On one hand we have Jim Bailey with a wealth of on-the-road, racing, dismantling, in-depth nuts-and-bolts knowledge of the car in the real world. When Jim tells you the tailfin makes no downforce he is correct. it makes negligible downforce and in real driving makes almost no difference. Not many of us sustain speeds in excess of 140mph in the fabled "GRAN TOURISMO" pie in the sky niche use of the 928. Most of us drive the living daylights out of the car off the line or up to say 90 or 120mph. Will the tailfin help? No.

And then in the other corner we have ....

Nicole, a full-blooded German Fraulein with perhaps more TIME and knowledge of Porsche and especially the 928 than even the inimitable Jim Bailey. When Jim was driving American Iron and 911's, Nicole was a young woman in Germany (near Stuttgart if I recall correctly) collecting 928 and other Porsche memorabilia, reading everything she could lay her hands on, and attending the Porsche Factory to see actual 928's being built, assembled, tested, crashed, driven, designed. Nicole can tell you porsche's published and unpublished data on the 928 in the finest detail. Does the tailfin make a difference? Absolutely. It streamlines the car, makes it a little more slippery, a little better planted, and a Porsche is, after all, a FINELY-TUNED SPORTSCAR. Every pound, every Cd .... every inch of weight displacement ... they all make a world of difference in safety, performance, reliability.

They are both correct.

Jim bailey - 928 International

One more time ....So a early 911 with no front spoiler no duck tail at a race weight of just under 2000 lbs would at 150 MPH have 320 lbs lift at the reart and 183 lbs + at the front.....fully 25 % of the weight !!!! And that my friends is the error of the 911 which Porsche wisely fixed for the 928. Total lift might be 4 % you still have nearly 3200 lbs plus drivers weight holding your 928 on the planet nicely balanced 50/50 . The fact is 928s do not get light ! It is an urban MYTH . numbers, text lifted from Porsche Excellence Was Expected ...... If you accept what was written in the book then the spoiler less early 928 had virtually no lift at 140 mph less than 60 lbs maybe 4% of total weight with 1/2 at either end. The 72 911 body had 25 % lift ! Removing the rear spoiler on either an S or S-4 might see 60 lbs of lift at the rear at 140 MPH that is insignificant by any definition ! There maybe lots of Yea buts, Yea buts, and conjecture about other aspects but the only hard evidence is the information listed in the Excellence Was Expected book which seems to have been written with much input from those inside Porsche. The 928 body shape really was well designed and wind tunnel tested to avoid lift.

Bill Coleman

Yea but...

Wind tunnel testing doesn't account for cross winds, or turbulence from other cars for example. And even the best computer model is just that - a model. It doesn't account for anything you don't put into the model.

Remember the M-B cars at Le Mans a few years back that seemingly lifted off the track without warning?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...98464502394753
I'll bet they were wind tunnel tested and computer modeled.

I'm not saying Paul shouldn't take the wing off his car. Heck, I'm starting to like the look. But I'd avoid trying to find the car's limits if I did - which in my case is unlikely to ever happen anyway!

AO

Paul-
Sorry to chime in so late in this topic. I was a bit busy with Preparations for HELL! (Btw, that shark water was yummy! )

You and I already discussed this in Hell. I say go fot it. If you don't like it, you can always add it back. And after looking at some of the posts here... I'm considering... ahh who am I kidding. I'll never loose my wing.

Have fun!

Ninespub

Andrew......You and Murph and the rest of the gang who are supercharged NEED a wing! Those are screaming beasts that you guys drive.

Paul Barrera
'91 $4

Jim bailey - 928 International

Lift from a wing also adds drag which is why airplanes need to have engines. Mercedes may have trimed out the car for top speed and got the nose a bit light doing a classic blow over like you see race boats do rather often. The unlimited hydros have a movable wing between the tips of the front sponsons which adjusts the amount of air under the boat , flying the boat is faster! The S-4 rear "wing" is a spoiler it disturbes the air cause it to tumble down behind. It helps SOME to lower the drag but HOW much is unknown... however the tests on the 911 showed about .o1 for the ducktail. As far as the question about would Porsche add something none functional just for LOOKS ...the proof is the GTS the rear 1/4 flair was NOT NEEDED (9 inch rims fit the S-4/ GT just fine ), the rear reflector was NOT needed. The Weisach eddition was ....an appearance package !!!!

Bill Coleman

Jim -

I'm not really arguing whether the wing is/isn't functional - just that simulations don't tell the whole story.

I certainly defer to your experience when it comes to the real world.

Maybe Porsche was thinking of putting even wider rims on the GTS before they changed their minds and killed it off!

Bill Ball

Eh, I missed this thread. I have no basis to add any real intelligence here, but I do believe the fat rear end of the 928 is an aerodynamic mistake. When Pete Brock, who was working with Shelby to develop the Cobra Daytona coupe for LeMans, took the round rear and and scooped it out based on the Kammback virtual tail concept, it DRAMATICALLY increased the top speed and reduced fuel consumption in the car. The car previously would not go over 150 on the Mulsanne straight. With the new tail, it hit 196. I've seen a few 928s with the rear bumper cover removed. It looks like there is enough room to reshape the cover to include some semblance of a Kammback.

Pete Brock was in his early 20s at the time he worked on the Dyatona Coupe. I found refereces to him still being around, living in the Seattle area doing some magazine writing and photography and involved in building a Superperformance version of the Daytona. It would be interesting to get his views on our tail end and the spoiler.