The Twin Screw Thread
08-09-2007, 03:50 AM
#1516
Three Wheelin'
Hi Ken,
This is a brand new unit. I can't use the existing pipe because it goes in too far and is almost up against the heat exchanger inside. Not enough space for water to get in/out the end of the tube. I decided to make another port which will fasten to the outside of the IC jacket. I'll block this one off.
This is a brand new unit. I can't use the existing pipe because it goes in too far and is almost up against the heat exchanger inside. Not enough space for water to get in/out the end of the tube. I decided to make another port which will fasten to the outside of the IC jacket. I'll block this one off.
Originally Posted by Vlocity
God Louie....that's ugly.
Was this a "takeoff" that had been previously installed. My fit/finish is nothing like that.
I know how particular you are..... is there a chance that you could take this to a local radiator shop and have them "weld" on an extension or slide a slightly larger tube over the top and weld it in place. Most shops are able to make crushed ends round again.....and then they could just add a 1 1/2 inch piece to it.
I had a shop change the outlet position for me on the heat exchanger that I used from a Yamaha 650 and it has held up just fine. No pressure on the system so it just needs to be nice and water tight.
Regards,
Ken
Was this a "takeoff" that had been previously installed. My fit/finish is nothing like that.
I know how particular you are..... is there a chance that you could take this to a local radiator shop and have them "weld" on an extension or slide a slightly larger tube over the top and weld it in place. Most shops are able to make crushed ends round again.....and then they could just add a 1 1/2 inch piece to it.
I had a shop change the outlet position for me on the heat exchanger that I used from a Yamaha 650 and it has held up just fine. No pressure on the system so it just needs to be nice and water tight.
Regards,
Ken
08-09-2007, 06:23 AM
#1517
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The one I got from Andy is not messed up like that. It was one of his last ones.
You can't get the connector out because it is part of the intercooler box that is inside the manifold box. Here's a picture of the IC with the top of the manifold flipped over. The original non-IC base is under the IC. Unfortunately, the new manifold housing base to accomodate the IC is not pictured. What you are calling the IC jacket is manifold housing.
Can't you take the manifold apart?
The flatness of the base may change as the manifold heats up too. The base plate is rather thin and there are limited internal supports in the area where it bolts to the head. I had persistent idle irregularities ONLY after the car warmed up, as you may recall. I suspected the manifold may be warping, although I never could prove it. Once I saw the lack of support in the area where it bolts down (see picture), I felt more certain about this. So, when I put the IC into the manifold I added more supports inside in hopes of stabilizing the base. I can't report whether it was succesful because I haven't gotten around to reinstalling the SC due to my other concerns about the tiny oil filler tubes Andy used and problems with oil ejection out of the oil filler breather at extremely high speeds. I'm waiting to get access to another motor so I can mock up and test fit a better filler the still fits around the manifold before I take my car out of service to install the SC.
I'm wondering about some gasket material that might accomodate irregularities and some warping of the base due to heating. Andy used a couple of different gaskets, but all very rigid, the last one looking like linoleum. He relied on excessive torquing of the bolts into the head. Towards the end he was calling for 30 ft lbs (stock is 11).
You can't get the connector out because it is part of the intercooler box that is inside the manifold box. Here's a picture of the IC with the top of the manifold flipped over. The original non-IC base is under the IC. Unfortunately, the new manifold housing base to accomodate the IC is not pictured. What you are calling the IC jacket is manifold housing.
Can't you take the manifold apart?
The flatness of the base may change as the manifold heats up too. The base plate is rather thin and there are limited internal supports in the area where it bolts to the head. I had persistent idle irregularities ONLY after the car warmed up, as you may recall. I suspected the manifold may be warping, although I never could prove it. Once I saw the lack of support in the area where it bolts down (see picture), I felt more certain about this. So, when I put the IC into the manifold I added more supports inside in hopes of stabilizing the base. I can't report whether it was succesful because I haven't gotten around to reinstalling the SC due to my other concerns about the tiny oil filler tubes Andy used and problems with oil ejection out of the oil filler breather at extremely high speeds. I'm waiting to get access to another motor so I can mock up and test fit a better filler the still fits around the manifold before I take my car out of service to install the SC.
I'm wondering about some gasket material that might accomodate irregularities and some warping of the base due to heating. Andy used a couple of different gaskets, but all very rigid, the last one looking like linoleum. He relied on excessive torquing of the bolts into the head. Towards the end he was calling for 30 ft lbs (stock is 11).
Last edited by Bill Ball; 08-09-2007 at 06:59 AM.
08-09-2007, 12:52 PM
#1518
Three Wheelin'
Bill,
Thanks a million for the pic and explanation. I think I have the construction figured out now and looks like I'm quite twin screwed with this. My "fix" won't work and I should have thought of that. I could simply put an extension on the munged up tube, but it goes too far inside and nearly touches the IC core which is probably why it's too short on the outside. I was trying to avoid disassembly. The sealer Andy used is extremely tough tenacious stuff and I was quite sure I'd end up bending, or even cracking, the cast intercooler housing to get it off. I'll figure out something. Disassembly may be my only choice.
I did make a, I think better, crankcase breather piece that fits into the crankcase hole. The 1/2" tube extending from the plate is way too small and there is no shielding underneath to keep the oil ejected from the rod bearing underneath it from being blown out the hole. I made a metal (1/16" thick hardware store plate) box that extends down into the hole. I put angled baffles at the bottom angled against the rotation of the crank so any oil would hit the flat baffles. Above that, I put more angled baffles so oil that got through the first ones would have to go through the next ones and hopefully most of what's left would impinge on those. above that layer of baffles and under the top plate is copper brillo pad loosly packed. I replaced the 1/2" tube with a 1" 90 deg copper pipe fitting. It's similar to what I did on my GT motor and it has worked well so far. Tony Harkin made one like it, but he used aluminum. No track testing on it yet so can't say for sure until that's done. Then on out with 1" hose and another 90 deg street L copper under the opening between the water bridge and connection down to the water pump. It's the same place where Andy had his running. I took some pics, but I didn't get the focus right so they are all fuzzy. First, I'll vent the 1" breather hose into a catch can to see how much oil escapes. That'll let me know if I need an external ait oil separator.
I abandoned trying to get oil into the breather tube. I'll alter one of the cam cover breather port fittings to accept an oil filler.
Thanks a million for the pic and explanation. I think I have the construction figured out now and looks like I'm quite twin screwed with this. My "fix" won't work and I should have thought of that. I could simply put an extension on the munged up tube, but it goes too far inside and nearly touches the IC core which is probably why it's too short on the outside. I was trying to avoid disassembly. The sealer Andy used is extremely tough tenacious stuff and I was quite sure I'd end up bending, or even cracking, the cast intercooler housing to get it off. I'll figure out something. Disassembly may be my only choice.
I did make a, I think better, crankcase breather piece that fits into the crankcase hole. The 1/2" tube extending from the plate is way too small and there is no shielding underneath to keep the oil ejected from the rod bearing underneath it from being blown out the hole. I made a metal (1/16" thick hardware store plate) box that extends down into the hole. I put angled baffles at the bottom angled against the rotation of the crank so any oil would hit the flat baffles. Above that, I put more angled baffles so oil that got through the first ones would have to go through the next ones and hopefully most of what's left would impinge on those. above that layer of baffles and under the top plate is copper brillo pad loosly packed. I replaced the 1/2" tube with a 1" 90 deg copper pipe fitting. It's similar to what I did on my GT motor and it has worked well so far. Tony Harkin made one like it, but he used aluminum. No track testing on it yet so can't say for sure until that's done. Then on out with 1" hose and another 90 deg street L copper under the opening between the water bridge and connection down to the water pump. It's the same place where Andy had his running. I took some pics, but I didn't get the focus right so they are all fuzzy. First, I'll vent the 1" breather hose into a catch can to see how much oil escapes. That'll let me know if I need an external ait oil separator.
I abandoned trying to get oil into the breather tube. I'll alter one of the cam cover breather port fittings to accept an oil filler.
Originally Posted by Bill Ball
The one I got from Andy is not messed up like that. It was one of his last ones.
You can't get the connector out because it is part of the intercooler box that is inside the manifold box. Here's a picture of the IC with the top of the manifold flipped over. The original non-IC base is under the IC. Unfortunately, the new manifold housing base to accomodate the IC is not pictured. What you are calling the IC jacket is manifold housing.
Can't you take the manifold apart?
The flatness of the base may change as the manifold heats up too. The base plate is rather thin and there are limited internal supports in the area where it bolts to the head. I had persistent idle irregularities ONLY after the car warmed up, as you may recall. I suspected the manifold may be warping, although I never could prove it. Once I saw the lack of support in the area where it bolts down (see picture), I felt more certain about this. So, when I put the IC into the manifold I added more supports inside in hopes of stabilizing the base. I can't report whether it was succesful because I haven't gotten around to reinstalling the SC due to my other concerns about the tiny oil filler tubes Andy used and problems with oil ejection out of the oil filler breather at extremely high speeds. I'm waiting to get access to another motor so I can mock up and test fit a better filler the still fits around the manifold before I take my car out of service to install the SC.
I'm wondering about some gasket material that might accomodate irregularities and some warping of the base due to heating. Andy used a couple of different gaskets, but all very rigid, the last one looking like linoleum. He relied on excessive torquing of the bolts into the head. Towards the end he was calling for 30 ft lbs (stock is 11).
You can't get the connector out because it is part of the intercooler box that is inside the manifold box. Here's a picture of the IC with the top of the manifold flipped over. The original non-IC base is under the IC. Unfortunately, the new manifold housing base to accomodate the IC is not pictured. What you are calling the IC jacket is manifold housing.
Can't you take the manifold apart?
The flatness of the base may change as the manifold heats up too. The base plate is rather thin and there are limited internal supports in the area where it bolts to the head. I had persistent idle irregularities ONLY after the car warmed up, as you may recall. I suspected the manifold may be warping, although I never could prove it. Once I saw the lack of support in the area where it bolts down (see picture), I felt more certain about this. So, when I put the IC into the manifold I added more supports inside in hopes of stabilizing the base. I can't report whether it was succesful because I haven't gotten around to reinstalling the SC due to my other concerns about the tiny oil filler tubes Andy used and problems with oil ejection out of the oil filler breather at extremely high speeds. I'm waiting to get access to another motor so I can mock up and test fit a better filler the still fits around the manifold before I take my car out of service to install the SC.
I'm wondering about some gasket material that might accomodate irregularities and some warping of the base due to heating. Andy used a couple of different gaskets, but all very rigid, the last one looking like linoleum. He relied on excessive torquing of the bolts into the head. Towards the end he was calling for 30 ft lbs (stock is 11).
08-09-2007, 02:45 PM
#1521
Under the Lift
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Yes, the "Right Stuff" is tenacious. It is soluble in carb cleaner and gasoline, but if the sealing surface area is at all substantial, as it is on the manifold, it can be a chore. A single edge razor blade or utility knife is needed to cut through the bond. Once you get about 75% of the bond area cut, it will give and pry apart easily from there. Clean up with the solvents I mentioned.
I have plans for a similar oil filler. One problem is clearance for a large tube. It has to be routed just right to get between the large manifold and the water bridge. Tony went out a totally different direction on the right side of the bridge. Anyway, a buddy has an engine he's putting together. Once he gets the heads on, I'm going to test fit the SC and filler mod.
The internal baffles below the oil filler plate are a must, but because of the apparent great volumes of oil and high speed air going out that route at 160 MPH, I believe oil that hits the baffles will not have a chance in Hell to drip back down. Once it gets to a baffle edge, no matter how angled, it's going to get blown out and around any other obstacle. And the copper pad may just serve as nothing more than a collection point along the way for oil going out of the motor. I'm rather pessimistic about keeping the oil in the motor without other changes that reduce the oil being tossed up there (e.g., windage trays, scrapers and pan spacer) and the amount of air. I'm not sure what to do for the latter.
I have plans for a similar oil filler. One problem is clearance for a large tube. It has to be routed just right to get between the large manifold and the water bridge. Tony went out a totally different direction on the right side of the bridge. Anyway, a buddy has an engine he's putting together. Once he gets the heads on, I'm going to test fit the SC and filler mod.
The internal baffles below the oil filler plate are a must, but because of the apparent great volumes of oil and high speed air going out that route at 160 MPH, I believe oil that hits the baffles will not have a chance in Hell to drip back down. Once it gets to a baffle edge, no matter how angled, it's going to get blown out and around any other obstacle. And the copper pad may just serve as nothing more than a collection point along the way for oil going out of the motor. I'm rather pessimistic about keeping the oil in the motor without other changes that reduce the oil being tossed up there (e.g., windage trays, scrapers and pan spacer) and the amount of air. I'm not sure what to do for the latter.
Last edited by Bill Ball; 08-09-2007 at 06:18 PM.
08-09-2007, 06:14 PM
#1522
Three Wheelin'
I may cut it apart. Not sure yet. I understand your concerns about possibly ineffectiveness of the the oil separator inside the block. I figure if it saves 20% of the oil that would normally come out, that's 20% I don't have to deal with outside. The area of the "box" is so much more than even the 1" outlet that the blow by velocity in the box can't be really high. Guess we'll see how it works. The plan is to set up the cam cover vents as fresh air inlets with no oil ejection expected from them.
Here are a couple of pics of the separator with 1" hose mounted. There is room, but just barely.
https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...d=211185&stc=1
AUT_0507.jpghttps://rennlist.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=211186&stc=1
AUT_0508.jpg
Here are a couple of pics of the separator with 1" hose mounted. There is room, but just barely.
Originally Posted by Bill Ball
Yes, the "Right Stuff" is tenacious. It is soluble in carb cleaner and gasoline, but if the sealing surface area is at all substantial, as it is on the manifold, it can be a chore. A single edge razor blade or utility knife is needed to cut through the bond. Once you get about 75% of the bond area cut, it will give and pry apart easily from there. Clean up with the solvents I mentioned.
I have plans for a similar oil filler. One problem is clearance for a large tube. It has to be routed just right to get between the large manifold and the water bridge. Tony went out a totally different direction on the right side of the bridge. Anyway, a buddy has an engine he's putting together. Once he gets the heads on, I'm going to test fit the SC and filler mod.
The internal baffles below the oil filler plate are a must, but because of the apparent great volumes of oil and high speed air going out that route at 160 MPH, I believe oil that hits the baffles will not have a chance in Hell to drip back down. Once it gets to a baflle edge, no matter how angled, it's going to get blown out and around any other obstacle. And the cooper pad may just serve as nothing more than a collection point along the way for oil going out of the motor. I'm rather pessimistic about keeping the oil in the motor without other changes that reduce the oil being tossed up there (e.g., windage trays, scrapers and pan spacer) and the amount of air. I'm not sure what to do for the latter.
I have plans for a similar oil filler. One problem is clearance for a large tube. It has to be routed just right to get between the large manifold and the water bridge. Tony went out a totally different direction on the right side of the bridge. Anyway, a buddy has an engine he's putting together. Once he gets the heads on, I'm going to test fit the SC and filler mod.
The internal baffles below the oil filler plate are a must, but because of the apparent great volumes of oil and high speed air going out that route at 160 MPH, I believe oil that hits the baffles will not have a chance in Hell to drip back down. Once it gets to a baflle edge, no matter how angled, it's going to get blown out and around any other obstacle. And the cooper pad may just serve as nothing more than a collection point along the way for oil going out of the motor. I'm rather pessimistic about keeping the oil in the motor without other changes that reduce the oil being tossed up there (e.g., windage trays, scrapers and pan spacer) and the amount of air. I'm not sure what to do for the latter.
AUT_0507.jpghttps://rennlist.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=211186&stc=1
AUT_0508.jpg
Last edited by Louie928; 03-18-2008 at 01:11 PM.
08-09-2007, 06:25 PM
#1523
Under the Lift
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Louis:
Ah, I see you used hose sections. I suppose going that route, you worry a lot less about getting the thing fab'd so precisely. I was going to braze various pipe sections together.
Any pictures of the box underneath?
Any
Ah, I see you used hose sections. I suppose going that route, you worry a lot less about getting the thing fab'd so precisely. I was going to braze various pipe sections together.
Any pictures of the box underneath?
Any
08-10-2007, 12:54 AM
#1524
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Bill Ball
Louis:
Ah, I see you used hose sections. I suppose going that route, you worry a lot less about getting the thing fab'd so precisely. I was going to braze various pipe sections together.
Any pictures of the box underneath?
Any
Ah, I see you used hose sections. I suppose going that route, you worry a lot less about getting the thing fab'd so precisely. I was going to braze various pipe sections together.
Any pictures of the box underneath?
Any
I do have some pics but they are pretty bad.
1. The top one is a side view before the end piece is welded on. The weld spots are where the baffles inside are welded to the box. Put a hole in the side. Place the baffle so its edge is under the hole and weld. Extra holes are in the side and ends so oil can get out.
2. The 2nd one is looking from the top onto the top baffles. They are 90 deg angled pieces oriented with the V down. A hole is in the V so oil can run out. As blow by comes up, I thought some oil would be collected on these. A layer of copper brillo pad is on top of this and under the solid top plate. Brillo pad is inside the 1" 90 deg tube in the top too. There is a screen in the end so the brillo pad will stay in place.
3. The third one down is the bottom showing the angled louvers before the end piece is fitted. The right end of the box will go on the right side of the engine. That way clockwise rotation of the crank will throw oil onto the flat surface of the louvers. I expect some to drip off without turning the corner at the edge and going up.
https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...d=211256&stc=1
AUT_0497.jpghttps://rennlist.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=211257&stc=1
AUT_0492.jpghttps://rennlist.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=211258&stc=1
AUT_0491.jpg
Last edited by Louie928; 03-18-2008 at 01:11 PM.
Thanks for the pictures of the box!
08-10-2007, 12:36 PM
#1527
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Rick Carter
How?
08-10-2007, 01:54 PM
#1529
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Rick Carter
Louie,
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
08-10-2007, 03:05 PM
#1530
Under the Lift
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I have cam cover breather lines. No oil is ever ejected out of them. All the oil comes out of the Andy's oil filler breather during high-speed ORR runs at about a quart in 50 miles.