From Randy: Yesterday, I banned Lagavulin (Paul) from Rennlist
07-22-2005, 03:49 PM
#61
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Randy-
You miss the convertible, don't you...
::Not trying to pour lighter fluid on the fire, but I guess I will::
Just out of curiosity, Randy, in your book, isn't Andy K a bit beyond the civil discourse in this case? Why not ban both until they can get along? My father always sent me AND my brother to our rooms. Not just one of us. As I do to my kids and most parents (read: moderators) do to their flock. It takes 2 to tango...
Now let's see, what was I dreaming about? Ahh yes...
You miss the convertible, don't you...
::Not trying to pour lighter fluid on the fire, but I guess I will::
Just out of curiosity, Randy, in your book, isn't Andy K a bit beyond the civil discourse in this case? Why not ban both until they can get along? My father always sent me AND my brother to our rooms. Not just one of us. As I do to my kids and most parents (read: moderators) do to their flock. It takes 2 to tango...
Now let's see, what was I dreaming about? Ahh yes...
07-22-2005, 03:50 PM
#62
"Dave & Sniper, the 300 HP baseline is from an imperfect world. If it had perfect world conditions, the baseline HP would be higher, wouldn't it?"
That baseline is produced at a less than 100% VE. At 100% VE the baseline figure could be as much as 15% higher(though i doubt it, probably more like 7-8% for 4v heads, and about 10% for 16v heads).
Before a SC or turbo can make any positive boost it must first bring the motor to a true zero vacuum/boost condition, which in and of itself WILL make a significant power gain.
As i stated earlier, that's the entire rationale for tunnel ram intake manifolds.
So the power gain from any forced induction system is:
Base HP + VE gain, + positive boost delivered to the cylinders, - charge air heating, - compressor drag = horsepower.
That baseline is produced at a less than 100% VE. At 100% VE the baseline figure could be as much as 15% higher(though i doubt it, probably more like 7-8% for 4v heads, and about 10% for 16v heads).
Before a SC or turbo can make any positive boost it must first bring the motor to a true zero vacuum/boost condition, which in and of itself WILL make a significant power gain.
As i stated earlier, that's the entire rationale for tunnel ram intake manifolds.
So the power gain from any forced induction system is:
Base HP + VE gain, + positive boost delivered to the cylinders, - charge air heating, - compressor drag = horsepower.
07-22-2005, 03:50 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by Randy V
It seems a bit naive to think that Tim was unaware of Paul's missives here. Tim could have asked Paul at any time to cool it.
Glenn
07-22-2005, 04:08 PM
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Just when I thought this thread had peaked...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy V
Ah, the puppetmaster comes out from behind the curtain...excellent.
Im currently on vacation and unfortunately get myself near a computer now and then.
Now i see all this crap. The banning IMHO is uncalled for and a childish statement like that backs up what i feel.
Also...
Personally i like everyone involved but when the $hit hits the fan i wont let people post things like this on a pass word protected forum and out of the other cheek talk about "libel" or what ever.
Ban me here if you like Randy...Ban me there if you like Andy. I really dont give a hoot. Iv thoroughly enjoyed the last 2 weeks away from the comptuer doing 400 miles on my bicycle instead...looking forward to many more.
fromt the 928Supermodel forums.
Quote:
XXXXX, the guy on rennlist "Lagavulin" will attack all 928 performance products as he works with Tim Murphy. He poses as just "a satisfied customer". He will flat out lie and manipulate "calculations" to try to discredit other's dyno charts etc. Don't pay any attention to this guy. Also be aware that "Z" works with Tim Murphy too. Both of these guys are smart and seem to have endless amounts of time to spend on the internet........ discrediting others. And finally "Quick Carl" Faussett.......well, you would figure this out for yourself soon enough, he is just a fool, that sells Tim's kits. Tim would be much better off if he didn't associate with any of the mentioned above.
Andy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy V
Ah, the puppetmaster comes out from behind the curtain...excellent.
Im currently on vacation and unfortunately get myself near a computer now and then.
Now i see all this crap. The banning IMHO is uncalled for and a childish statement like that backs up what i feel.
Also...
Personally i like everyone involved but when the $hit hits the fan i wont let people post things like this on a pass word protected forum and out of the other cheek talk about "libel" or what ever.
Ban me here if you like Randy...Ban me there if you like Andy. I really dont give a hoot. Iv thoroughly enjoyed the last 2 weeks away from the comptuer doing 400 miles on my bicycle instead...looking forward to many more.
fromt the 928Supermodel forums.
Quote:
XXXXX, the guy on rennlist "Lagavulin" will attack all 928 performance products as he works with Tim Murphy. He poses as just "a satisfied customer". He will flat out lie and manipulate "calculations" to try to discredit other's dyno charts etc. Don't pay any attention to this guy. Also be aware that "Z" works with Tim Murphy too. Both of these guys are smart and seem to have endless amounts of time to spend on the internet........ discrediting others. And finally "Quick Carl" Faussett.......well, you would figure this out for yourself soon enough, he is just a fool, that sells Tim's kits. Tim would be much better off if he didn't associate with any of the mentioned above.
Andy
07-22-2005, 04:20 PM
#65
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The AFR changed on my car from 14.7-13.0 to 14.5-11.9, when I put in the new fuel reg and
injectors. This change on a stock engine would produce more hp without any other changes.
Where is the boost pressure measured? In the manifold? Post the intercooler? If so, then yes
the boost is really 9 psi, not 7.5, again another variable. What about the 1 psi that Marc mentioned
in another thread, does that make it 10 psi? In Jim_H's case, he increased his exhaust size while
"stock" and saw a decrease in power (which he didn't believe), but a big increase with the s/c,
another variable. I don't think any of these tests followed true scientific methods so we can't
really assume that the results will follow simple formulae that localize one or two variables. I still
don't know how I went from 6.7 psi to 8.9 by adding high flow cats to the X-pipe. Too many
variables for me and not enough info/knowledge on my part. But by talking about this stuff,
and sharing information and ideas, maybe we can come closer to understanding.
injectors. This change on a stock engine would produce more hp without any other changes.
Where is the boost pressure measured? In the manifold? Post the intercooler? If so, then yes
the boost is really 9 psi, not 7.5, again another variable. What about the 1 psi that Marc mentioned
in another thread, does that make it 10 psi? In Jim_H's case, he increased his exhaust size while
"stock" and saw a decrease in power (which he didn't believe), but a big increase with the s/c,
another variable. I don't think any of these tests followed true scientific methods so we can't
really assume that the results will follow simple formulae that localize one or two variables. I still
don't know how I went from 6.7 psi to 8.9 by adding high flow cats to the X-pipe. Too many
variables for me and not enough info/knowledge on my part. But by talking about this stuff,
and sharing information and ideas, maybe we can come closer to understanding.
07-22-2005, 04:20 PM
#66
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here for a second and defend Randy...
I don't really post here anymore and I don't really read here anymore either. Rennlist IMHO has gone downhill since the time I first became a member. While its only been 1.5 years or so, i've noticed a distinct decline and i'm certain other members have too.
Sure, I may be biased, but I don't think Lag's activity in the past threads was proper. He could have said everything he said in a different way. Some of you are saying that Andy shouldn't be taking this as personal because its an attack on his product - but that's not true. Lag made specific references to Andy in the form of "YOU". He was specifically trying to say something about Andy.
Just from what I perceive, it seems that more argument and negative activity goes on here than constructive critisism and/or bettering the 928 itself. You are entitled to your own opinion and that's perfectly fine. This is strictly what I feel.
For me personally, I finally sent a PM over to John D. and told him why I never renewed my membership. Its because I believe the 928 forum on rennlist is going downhill and I can't see myself supporting something like this anymore. I believe that is the reason why Randy did what he did. He needs to act in the forum's best interests.
You can disagree with me, call me a winer or a baby or whatever. I don't really care. Everyone has their own opinions and they are entitled to them. This is mine, and I know other people agree with me. This isn't an attack on anyone really. I've met a bunch of you in person outside of rennlist and all I can say is that you are awesome people. I hope I can get behind the wheel of another 928 soon and continue sharing experiences in the best car ever built.
I don't really post here anymore and I don't really read here anymore either. Rennlist IMHO has gone downhill since the time I first became a member. While its only been 1.5 years or so, i've noticed a distinct decline and i'm certain other members have too.
Sure, I may be biased, but I don't think Lag's activity in the past threads was proper. He could have said everything he said in a different way. Some of you are saying that Andy shouldn't be taking this as personal because its an attack on his product - but that's not true. Lag made specific references to Andy in the form of "YOU". He was specifically trying to say something about Andy.
Just from what I perceive, it seems that more argument and negative activity goes on here than constructive critisism and/or bettering the 928 itself. You are entitled to your own opinion and that's perfectly fine. This is strictly what I feel.
For me personally, I finally sent a PM over to John D. and told him why I never renewed my membership. Its because I believe the 928 forum on rennlist is going downhill and I can't see myself supporting something like this anymore. I believe that is the reason why Randy did what he did. He needs to act in the forum's best interests.
You can disagree with me, call me a winer or a baby or whatever. I don't really care. Everyone has their own opinions and they are entitled to them. This is mine, and I know other people agree with me. This isn't an attack on anyone really. I've met a bunch of you in person outside of rennlist and all I can say is that you are awesome people. I hope I can get behind the wheel of another 928 soon and continue sharing experiences in the best car ever built.
07-22-2005, 04:23 PM
#67
Drifting
Yup, it just keeps rolling along.
Further allowing Andy to spout whatever he wants is another mistake in my book. It allows him to sway the population without rebuttal from his nemisis which is very one-sided.
As far as Paul & Tim, I'd be willing to bet that Paul isn't one of Tim's children and as an adult, is responsible for his own actions. Tim could have and may have suggested that he tone it down but it's Paul's decision to do so. I can't see Tim being faulted for Paul's actions.
Further allowing Andy to spout whatever he wants is another mistake in my book. It allows him to sway the population without rebuttal from his nemisis which is very one-sided.
As far as Paul & Tim, I'd be willing to bet that Paul isn't one of Tim's children and as an adult, is responsible for his own actions. Tim could have and may have suggested that he tone it down but it's Paul's decision to do so. I can't see Tim being faulted for Paul's actions.
07-22-2005, 04:32 PM
#68
Drifting
Just changing your AFR will not increase horsepower unless your fuel system is not properly handling your engine's requirements already. By adding an X, you change the engine's dynamics, requiring more fuel to keep up with the increased airflow, in turn regaining proper fuel mixture with additional hp. Adding an AFPR to an otherwise bone stock vehicle will not necessarily give you one iota of increased power and may decrease the power if fattened up too much. Maximum horsepower is very dependant on proper fuel mixture, not the quantity of fuel you can stuff into the engine.
Exchanges like this are what this board should be about. Intelligent conversation about +/- benefits of any given improvement. No name calling, no accusations, no games or hidden agenda's.
Exchanges like this are what this board should be about. Intelligent conversation about +/- benefits of any given improvement. No name calling, no accusations, no games or hidden agenda's.
07-22-2005, 04:33 PM
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I did?
I didn't? Well I guess you are right there because i didn't know I did.
I didn't? Well I guess you are right there because i didn't know I did.
Originally Posted by jorj7
In Jim_H's case, he increased his exhaust size while
"stock" and saw a decrease in power
(which he didn't believe), but a big increase with the s/c,
another variable. .
"stock" and saw a decrease in power
(which he didn't believe), but a big increase with the s/c,
another variable. .
07-22-2005, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mspiegle
[B]
Just from what I perceive, it seems that more argument and negative activity goes on here than constructive critisism and/or bettering the 928 itself. You are entitled to your own opinion and that's perfectly fine. This is strictly what I feel.
.
Just from what I perceive, it seems that more argument and negative activity goes on here than constructive critisism and/or bettering the 928 itself. You are entitled to your own opinion and that's perfectly fine. This is strictly what I feel.
.
07-22-2005, 04:35 PM
#71
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Originally Posted by m21sniper
So the power gain from any forced induction system is:
Base HP + VE gain, + positive boost delivered to the cylinders, - charge air heating, - compressor drag = horsepower.
If VE gain can be exemplified by dyno runs on N/A car where the before and after runs would capture the difference in HP due to, for example, a misfire problem on the base run and corrected ignition on the post-run, then I think I get it. Is this a VE gain, then?
The point of contention in the simple math comes down to what extent parasitic loss , temp differences and VE gain cancel each other out.
Maybe I learned something. Thanks for being civil with me.
07-22-2005, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Randy V
Much easier to launch against the guy who's here every day, isn't it lads.
Yes, I am partial - partial to civil and intelligent discourse. Paul possesed the latter, but not the former.
It seems a bit naive to think that Tim was unaware of Paul's missives here. Tim could have asked Paul at any time to cool it.
When Paul returns, I hope he will contribute within a spirit of sharing and cooperation.
I hope Tim can do the same. It would be nice to see him drop by here other than during instances of high drama.
Yes, I am partial - partial to civil and intelligent discourse. Paul possesed the latter, but not the former.
It seems a bit naive to think that Tim was unaware of Paul's missives here. Tim could have asked Paul at any time to cool it.
When Paul returns, I hope he will contribute within a spirit of sharing and cooperation.
I hope Tim can do the same. It would be nice to see him drop by here other than during instances of high drama.
Paul's missives?!Puppeteer?! There you go again Randy, insinuating that I am behind what people say on here, especially if it is not politically correct with respect to your views or the desired views of a select few. Geeeesh!!
So, just because Gretch has publicly stated his appreciation for me and what I have done (feeling is mutual BTW Gretch) and occasionally debates his views with others, do you think I am telling him what to say and not to say?? Yeah right!
These guys are big boys and they don't need me telling them what to do.
fromt the 928Supermodel forums.
Quote:
XXXXX, the guy on rennlist "Lagavulin" will attack all 928 performance products as he works with Tim Murphy. He poses as just "a satisfied customer". He will flat out lie and manipulate "calculations" to try to discredit other's dyno charts etc. Don't pay any attention to this guy. Also be aware that "Z" works with Tim Murphy too. Both of these guys are smart and seem to have endless amounts of time to spend on the internet........ discrediting others. And finally "Quick Carl" Faussett.......well, you would figure this out for yourself soon enough, he is just a fool, that sells Tim's kits. Tim would be much better off if he didn't associate with any of the mentioned above.
Andy
Quote:
XXXXX, the guy on rennlist "Lagavulin" will attack all 928 performance products as he works with Tim Murphy. He poses as just "a satisfied customer". He will flat out lie and manipulate "calculations" to try to discredit other's dyno charts etc. Don't pay any attention to this guy. Also be aware that "Z" works with Tim Murphy too. Both of these guys are smart and seem to have endless amounts of time to spend on the internet........ discrediting others. And finally "Quick Carl" Faussett.......well, you would figure this out for yourself soon enough, he is just a fool, that sells Tim's kits. Tim would be much better off if he didn't associate with any of the mentioned above.
Andy
07-22-2005, 04:53 PM
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wouldn't ya know it, I've been haning out in OT, waitiing for this to blow up, and missd out on all the fun!! silly me... 
fwiw, I share BC's and Gretch's sentiments on this one- it does seem a bit odd to not allow certian threads to run their course - paul didn't get any diplomatic points, but he did raise some isssues that we all learned from/gave andy a chance to set the record straight... IMO, most of us can sift through the smoke and haze to find the nuggets of useful info if these things run their course...
I doubt tim has a leash on paul (or anyone) so blaming tim seems a bit odd (unless ya got some good photos)
jutst cause I like my 928 doesn't make me a porsche spokesperson (lucky dr.porsche!)...
IMO, if this is a forum for USERS to share product and tech info, then it's only fair (and should be encouraged) for us to honestly communicate positive AND negative views (unless rennlist is now owned by Road and Track)...
IMO for vendors, rennlist provides a medium to advertise and communicate decent responses to critizisim/rumors/whatever - and of course the vendor has a golden oppty to shamelessy shine, or at least be aware of an issue so they can fix it and then publically proclaim success w/a new/improved/more $$ product...
from what I've seen, usually if somebody is off base, other users jump in and set the record straiight - so personal agendas get tossed pretty quickly.... seems to me, that was happening till the plug got pulled... IMO, pulling the plug on a hotlly contested thread only raises suspicions and starts a whole new round of nonsense.... again, probably better off just lettiing these things run out on their own...
regards!
fwiw, I share BC's and Gretch's sentiments on this one- it does seem a bit odd to not allow certian threads to run their course - paul didn't get any diplomatic points, but he did raise some isssues that we all learned from/gave andy a chance to set the record straight... IMO, most of us can sift through the smoke and haze to find the nuggets of useful info if these things run their course...
I doubt tim has a leash on paul (or anyone) so blaming tim seems a bit odd (unless ya got some good photos)
jutst cause I like my 928 doesn't make me a porsche spokesperson (lucky dr.porsche!)...IMO, if this is a forum for USERS to share product and tech info, then it's only fair (and should be encouraged) for us to honestly communicate positive AND negative views (unless rennlist is now owned by Road and Track)...
IMO for vendors, rennlist provides a medium to advertise and communicate decent responses to critizisim/rumors/whatever - and of course the vendor has a golden oppty to shamelessy shine, or at least be aware of an issue so they can fix it and then publically proclaim success w/a new/improved/more $$ product...
from what I've seen, usually if somebody is off base, other users jump in and set the record straiight - so personal agendas get tossed pretty quickly.... seems to me, that was happening till the plug got pulled... IMO, pulling the plug on a hotlly contested thread only raises suspicions and starts a whole new round of nonsense.... again, probably better off just lettiing these things run out on their own...
regards!
07-22-2005, 05:46 PM
#74
"The AFR changed on my car from 14.7-13.0 to 14.5-11.9, when I put in the new fuel reg and
injectors. This change on a stock engine would produce more hp without any other changes. "
Quite true.
Ketchmi: "Just changing your AFR will not increase horsepower unless your fuel system is not properly handling your engine's requirements already."
Actually going from a 14.7 stoich to a 12.0(ideal for max power) on any engine, yes, you will gain a fairly significant amount of power with no other changes. The tradeoff is increased emmisions and decreased fuel economy. Again, nothing is free, everything is a compromise.
Likewise, increasing just ignition timing can have the same exact results. More power, worse emmisions and economy.
injectors. This change on a stock engine would produce more hp without any other changes. "
Quite true.
Ketchmi: "Just changing your AFR will not increase horsepower unless your fuel system is not properly handling your engine's requirements already."
Actually going from a 14.7 stoich to a 12.0(ideal for max power) on any engine, yes, you will gain a fairly significant amount of power with no other changes. The tradeoff is increased emmisions and decreased fuel economy. Again, nothing is free, everything is a compromise.
Likewise, increasing just ignition timing can have the same exact results. More power, worse emmisions and economy.
07-22-2005, 06:01 PM
#75
As a family, families have fights, yes? I doubt I'd ever have my Shark SC'd. Doubt I'd ever have the $$, time or expertise to allocate for it. I don't know any of the parties involved here either. All seem to share the common passion for a great car!
I honestly have no clue as to who is correct technically in their position. Paul seems a bit strong in how he expressed himself. It sounds like he believes his info is true. Not as tactful as he might have said things. Andy seems a bit defensive, but he's worked hard with his time, $$ & effort to develop his product & felt attacked personally, besides just his product. He may not feel he "owes" any proof or explanation to the questions or charges. When you are in the spotlight of promoting something there are always questions to be be answered or critics to be dispelled, right or wrong. Having the facts to support or defend your claims on either side is always the quickest way to prove your position. I would think time will tell on this subject.
Both sides at times got beyond just a fact telling mission. As a moderator, the politically correct thing would have been to forewarn the parties involved before anyone was banned or stop things sooner. Being obviously on one side is not how to conduct moderation of a site, but that goes with the discretion of the job. Being personal about it with taunting comments is simply out of line, either ban the person, or admonsh them or whatever your justice is. Keep the personal stuff to the rest of us, within reason of course. Along with the glory n power of being Judge & King, you technically lose the right to sling mud. Have to rise above all of that stuff to set an example for the rest of us mudslingers. I don't think any truly have the responsibility of any power or persuation over others who post here. If so, then they should be selling something worth more $$ than 928 parts! Randy, you do seem like a real nice guy to me though in how you've handled other things. I am glad you take the time & hassle to be the moderator cause I love this forum. Just think you've let this one get too close to your heart perhaps.
I hope that there is always room for those in the know to be able to discuss & debate issues. That is how us out here in the dark are able to walk more towards the light in learning about the 928. I think more than one group with products in demand is also good for us all, consumers and suppliers. It should in the end help to make our cars better. Just need to keep the mud slinging at a minimum when we debate is all.
I honestly have no clue as to who is correct technically in their position. Paul seems a bit strong in how he expressed himself. It sounds like he believes his info is true. Not as tactful as he might have said things. Andy seems a bit defensive, but he's worked hard with his time, $$ & effort to develop his product & felt attacked personally, besides just his product. He may not feel he "owes" any proof or explanation to the questions or charges. When you are in the spotlight of promoting something there are always questions to be be answered or critics to be dispelled, right or wrong. Having the facts to support or defend your claims on either side is always the quickest way to prove your position. I would think time will tell on this subject.
Both sides at times got beyond just a fact telling mission. As a moderator, the politically correct thing would have been to forewarn the parties involved before anyone was banned or stop things sooner. Being obviously on one side is not how to conduct moderation of a site, but that goes with the discretion of the job. Being personal about it with taunting comments is simply out of line, either ban the person, or admonsh them or whatever your justice is. Keep the personal stuff to the rest of us, within reason of course. Along with the glory n power of being Judge & King, you technically lose the right to sling mud. Have to rise above all of that stuff to set an example for the rest of us mudslingers. I don't think any truly have the responsibility of any power or persuation over others who post here. If so, then they should be selling something worth more $$ than 928 parts! Randy, you do seem like a real nice guy to me though in how you've handled other things. I am glad you take the time & hassle to be the moderator cause I love this forum. Just think you've let this one get too close to your heart perhaps.
I hope that there is always room for those in the know to be able to discuss & debate issues. That is how us out here in the dark are able to walk more towards the light in learning about the 928. I think more than one group with products in demand is also good for us all, consumers and suppliers. It should in the end help to make our cars better. Just need to keep the mud slinging at a minimum when we debate is all.