From Randy: Yesterday, I banned Lagavulin (Paul) from Rennlist
07-22-2005, 06:04 PM
#76
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Disclaimer: I seldom stick up for Randy, and one of his critics butt:
He does a decent job in the 928 section, he rountinuely helps people and brings balance to these occasional pissing matches. Sure sometimes he makes a call that somebody might not like, hey you can't please everyone. But overall his job around here is an A++. It could be worse, I could be moderating this place
But you vendors with superchargers need to get your collective sh*t together. This constant infighting amoungst all you is making this board look like a bunch of kids with a 944. Its unproffessionel and gives great insite to 'quality' of your products.
Why should I buy an uber charger and then have to deal with cry-baby related issues that are baggage. It seems to have some bad karma.
How do you know John D. and Randy didn't just read everyones PM and outgoing E-Mail and have all their sh*t straight before a banning? You know there is a way for them to watch your 'chatter' if they want. BOOGA BOOGA
Everyone needs to get the F*** along and be happy
Void where prohibited (Gretch)
He does a decent job in the 928 section, he rountinuely helps people and brings balance to these occasional pissing matches. Sure sometimes he makes a call that somebody might not like, hey you can't please everyone. But overall his job around here is an A++. It could be worse, I could be moderating this place
But you vendors with superchargers need to get your collective sh*t together. This constant infighting amoungst all you is making this board look like a bunch of kids with a 944. Its unproffessionel and gives great insite to 'quality' of your products.
Why should I buy an uber charger and then have to deal with cry-baby related issues that are baggage. It seems to have some bad karma.
How do you know John D. and Randy didn't just read everyones PM and outgoing E-Mail and have all their sh*t straight before a banning? You know there is a way for them to watch your 'chatter' if they want. BOOGA BOOGA
Everyone needs to get the F*** along and be happy
Void where prohibited (Gretch)
07-22-2005, 06:05 PM
#77
"I do not fully understand VE gain, but what you are presenting here seems logical."
Not being a rocket scientist myself i'll try to explain it the best i can with an example that you should be familiar with.
Let's say you have a syringe. You put the syringe into a glass of water and draw back the plunger. Notice how there's always a pocket of air in the syringe that you see docs and nurses squirting out before they inject you? That's the inherent volumetric innefficiency at play. It may be a 200cc syringe, but because of the delay in creating a vacuum when the plunger is pulled back there's a portion of the syringe that is not filled with water.
A piston moving up and down in a cylinder works on exactly the same principle.
While each bore of your v-8 may have 50 cubic inches of volume, because it is not fully filled with air fuel mixture when the piston is on it's downward stroke(nor is it fully evacuated on the exhaust stroke), only a certain % of it is actually used effectively. If 85% of the cylinder's volume is filled with fuel-air mixture on a given intake stroke, the engine is 85% volumetric efficient.
So if you can fill that cylinder with the full 50 cubic inches of fuel-air mixture(while keeping the fuel-air temperature constant) you've just effectively increased horsepower by 15%. That's what tunnel ram intake manifolds do. Because the air intake charge gains such velocity(nearly supersonic on really top end setups), the cylinders are filled completely(at high RPMs), and the engine operates at it's full 100% VE.
Before you begin to even add power from boost, you're already adding a significant amount of power just by making your engine work to it's naturally aspirated mechanical limit(which is it's displacement).
"Maybe I learned something. Thanks for being civil with me."
No problem, glad i could help.
Not being a rocket scientist myself i'll try to explain it the best i can with an example that you should be familiar with.
Let's say you have a syringe. You put the syringe into a glass of water and draw back the plunger. Notice how there's always a pocket of air in the syringe that you see docs and nurses squirting out before they inject you? That's the inherent volumetric innefficiency at play. It may be a 200cc syringe, but because of the delay in creating a vacuum when the plunger is pulled back there's a portion of the syringe that is not filled with water.
A piston moving up and down in a cylinder works on exactly the same principle.
While each bore of your v-8 may have 50 cubic inches of volume, because it is not fully filled with air fuel mixture when the piston is on it's downward stroke(nor is it fully evacuated on the exhaust stroke), only a certain % of it is actually used effectively. If 85% of the cylinder's volume is filled with fuel-air mixture on a given intake stroke, the engine is 85% volumetric efficient.
So if you can fill that cylinder with the full 50 cubic inches of fuel-air mixture(while keeping the fuel-air temperature constant) you've just effectively increased horsepower by 15%. That's what tunnel ram intake manifolds do. Because the air intake charge gains such velocity(nearly supersonic on really top end setups), the cylinders are filled completely(at high RPMs), and the engine operates at it's full 100% VE.
Before you begin to even add power from boost, you're already adding a significant amount of power just by making your engine work to it's naturally aspirated mechanical limit(which is it's displacement).
"Maybe I learned something. Thanks for being civil with me."
No problem, glad i could help.
07-22-2005, 06:16 PM
#78
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Originally Posted by Red UFO
Why should I buy an uber charger and then have to deal with cry-baby related issues that are baggage. It seems to have some bad karma.
What have I learned from these threads?
That if you buy and install a S/C and post anything about it on this forum you will eventually be in the path of a $h+t storm.
I highly doubt that Andy, Tim, and/or anyone else that develops, markets, or installs S/C systems will benefit in the long-term as a result of these 'debates' that quickly fall in to the muck. I don't know who was right or who was wrong or who did what to whom behind whomever's back. But,regardless of which party was in the right and which party was wronged, I am forming an opinion that these "S/C War" threads do far more damage to a cause that many of us share - the cause of increasing our h.p - that anybody suspects. How many potential customers of anyone's S/C kit are turned-off forever or at least delay their purchase by months or years as a result of the mud-slinging?
07-22-2005, 06:24 PM
#79
USMarine
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Originally Posted by SethW
I'm just going to put my $0.02 cents in here. There is no "free speech" here on Rennlist. There is a charter that is FAR, FAR more restrictive than that "free speech" right guaranteed by certain civil rights we enjoy as citizens of our respective nations. We all agreed to be bound by that charter as members of this community.
Honest, mature and open feedback is appropriate. Taunting, defamation, cursing, personal insults and the like really don't belong on this board. Frankly, its behavior I expect from a much less mature crowd driving cars more well suited to stickers and pictures of Calvin peeing on another marquee symbol.
This conduct has become rampant over the supercharger issue and nobody has stood up above the fray and nobody has turned down the rhetoric. Hey folks, lets face facts here, we are driving 1970's technology that is the red headed stepchild (NO offense to red heads, love 'em) of the Porsche family, only marginally more "accepted" than the 924. If our community is internally divided like this, then there is even less hope for the preservation of these lovely cars that were oh so far ahead of their time, and rejected b/c the engine was in the wrong place and used coolant.
Well, that is it for me on the subject.
Honest, mature and open feedback is appropriate. Taunting, defamation, cursing, personal insults and the like really don't belong on this board. Frankly, its behavior I expect from a much less mature crowd driving cars more well suited to stickers and pictures of Calvin peeing on another marquee symbol.
This conduct has become rampant over the supercharger issue and nobody has stood up above the fray and nobody has turned down the rhetoric. Hey folks, lets face facts here, we are driving 1970's technology that is the red headed stepchild (NO offense to red heads, love 'em) of the Porsche family, only marginally more "accepted" than the 924. If our community is internally divided like this, then there is even less hope for the preservation of these lovely cars that were oh so far ahead of their time, and rejected b/c the engine was in the wrong place and used coolant.
Well, that is it for me on the subject.
Who the hell is this guy???
07-22-2005, 06:29 PM
#80
USMarine
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Originally Posted by Randy V
Much easier to launch against the guy who's here every day, isn't it lads.
Yes, I am partial - partial to civil and intelligent discourse. Paul possesed the latter, but not the former.
It seems a bit naive to think that Tim was unaware of Paul's missives here. Tim could have asked Paul at any time to cool it.
When Paul returns, I hope he will contribute within a spirit of sharing and cooperation.
I hope Tim can do the same. It would be nice to see him drop by here other than during instances of high drama.
Yes, I am partial - partial to civil and intelligent discourse. Paul possesed the latter, but not the former.
It seems a bit naive to think that Tim was unaware of Paul's missives here. Tim could have asked Paul at any time to cool it.
When Paul returns, I hope he will contribute within a spirit of sharing and cooperation.
I hope Tim can do the same. It would be nice to see him drop by here other than during instances of high drama.
07-22-2005, 06:30 PM
#81
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Hey you all know how I feel about Lag/Paul, whoever he is. He was the first guy to tell me my setup wouldn't cut the mustard...then when it did he minimized himself to making personal attacks...i.e. physical trait comments (funny, he has never seen me), divorce comments (perhaps he is seeing my ex-wife, I don't know?
. He isn't the human calculating machine he paints himself to be. Paul, it's nothing personal, but get some class when you make your point and realize an Engineer will always see through the BS. I'd gladly welcome the opportunity to show you my new setup sometime next year.
People on here have painted me to be some form of twitchy, edgy person....a few of you have met me and know this isn't the case. This is largely in part to me having to defend my situation when Speed Racer cuts and pastes snippets of his select choice to exaggerate his points and paint ugly about others. It's not funny and not cute and it is clearly disrespectful of those who have put the hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars into development efforts. Realize the "s" at the end of the words hundred and thousand because that is what it takes. What has Paul done in terms of engineering anything for these cars? Mudslinging? As I see it, he just rotates the "pot of ****" handle and slings the contents where he can.
I've found Andy, Carl and Murf to be very friendly and decent to deal with. I've met two of the three. You all know my opinion of the centrifugals...hey no big deal and of course it would never influence my opinion of the value of the person as an individual. Just don't tell me how good something is when it isn't. I can disagree and still like the person...I suggest the rest of you should be able to do the same.
I agree, it was time for a time out. Now...I've got some turbos to hang. BACK TO BUSINESS!
. He isn't the human calculating machine he paints himself to be. Paul, it's nothing personal, but get some class when you make your point and realize an Engineer will always see through the BS. I'd gladly welcome the opportunity to show you my new setup sometime next year. People on here have painted me to be some form of twitchy, edgy person....a few of you have met me and know this isn't the case. This is largely in part to me having to defend my situation when Speed Racer cuts and pastes snippets of his select choice to exaggerate his points and paint ugly about others. It's not funny and not cute and it is clearly disrespectful of those who have put the hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars into development efforts. Realize the "s" at the end of the words hundred and thousand because that is what it takes. What has Paul done in terms of engineering anything for these cars? Mudslinging? As I see it, he just rotates the "pot of ****" handle and slings the contents where he can.
I've found Andy, Carl and Murf to be very friendly and decent to deal with. I've met two of the three. You all know my opinion of the centrifugals...hey no big deal and of course it would never influence my opinion of the value of the person as an individual. Just don't tell me how good something is when it isn't. I can disagree and still like the person...I suggest the rest of you should be able to do the same.
I agree, it was time for a time out. Now...I've got some turbos to hang. BACK TO BUSINESS!
07-22-2005, 06:32 PM
#82
USMarine
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Originally Posted by sharkmeister85
I didn't know Tim was a moderator here.
Glenn
Glenn
Well said in a few words Sharky...dude your oneliners continue to impress me
07-22-2005, 06:46 PM
#83
USMarine
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Tim Murphy
Paul's missives?!Puppeteer?! There you go again Randy, insinuating that I am behind what people say on here, especially if it is not politically correct with respect to your views or the desired views of a select few. Geeeesh!!
So, just because Gretch has publicly stated his appreciation for me and what I have done (feeling is mutual BTW Gretch) and occasionally debates his views with others, do you think I am telling him what to say and not to say?? Yeah right!
These guys are big boys and they don't need me telling them what to do.
Yep Andy, you’re a real class act. Apparently you did a good job drilling Randy with PM's and filling his head with this crap because it appears he bought into your theory.
So, just because Gretch has publicly stated his appreciation for me and what I have done (feeling is mutual BTW Gretch) and occasionally debates his views with others, do you think I am telling him what to say and not to say?? Yeah right!
These guys are big boys and they don't need me telling them what to do.
Yep Andy, you’re a real class act. Apparently you did a good job drilling Randy with PM's and filling his head with this crap because it appears he bought into your theory.
Tim, don't go there with the Moderator my friend this is a battle you could loose. There are many people who think very highly of you (including Louis Ott and others I know) and would hate to loose your ability to post here over a period for flaming on the moderator...you cannot win this battle.
Lest we forget Tim, that forced induction over the past few years has really been pioneered by few that post on this topic. You are are among the few that has made forced induction for the 928 possible so that discussions threads on Supercharging are even remotely possible and I personally respect that.
Hang out my friend you have earned your stripes already no need to go down in a sea of flames proving a point to late comers or moderators.
07-22-2005, 06:49 PM
#84
Drifting
Hey Snipe!
Increasing the A/F ratio to the proper one for WOT is accomodated for already in the LH and O2 sensor closed loop system. If your system already has enough fuel capability to provide 12.5/1 at WOT, increasing your fuel pressure isn't going to gain you anything but some soot on the tail of your car. You are not fully understanding the premise, if you improve the breathing capacity of the engine over stock, you need to improve the fuel flow to match. If the system is already matched, IE stoich at cruise and part throttle and 12.5 ish at WOT, more fuel doesn't do a bit of good.
Increasing the A/F ratio to the proper one for WOT is accomodated for already in the LH and O2 sensor closed loop system. If your system already has enough fuel capability to provide 12.5/1 at WOT, increasing your fuel pressure isn't going to gain you anything but some soot on the tail of your car. You are not fully understanding the premise, if you improve the breathing capacity of the engine over stock, you need to improve the fuel flow to match. If the system is already matched, IE stoich at cruise and part throttle and 12.5 ish at WOT, more fuel doesn't do a bit of good.
07-22-2005, 06:59 PM
#85
"Hey Snipe!"
Hey bro!
Yet another familiar face here at the list.
"Increasing the A/F ratio to the proper one for WOT is accomodated for already in the LH and O2 sensor closed loop system. If your system already has enough fuel capability to provide 12.5/1 at WOT, increasing your fuel pressure isn't going to gain you anything but some soot on the tail of your car. You are not fully understanding the premise, if you improve the breathing capacity of the engine over stock, you need to improve the fuel flow to match. If the system is already matched, IE stoich at cruise and part throttle and 12.5 ish at WOT, more fuel doesn't do a bit of good."
I don't disagree with any of that(and yeah, i understand what's at play, lol), i'm just stating that if you have a 14:1 fixed AFR and increase it to 12:1 you'll make more power.
Nothing more.
Hey bro!
Yet another familiar face here at the list.
"Increasing the A/F ratio to the proper one for WOT is accomodated for already in the LH and O2 sensor closed loop system. If your system already has enough fuel capability to provide 12.5/1 at WOT, increasing your fuel pressure isn't going to gain you anything but some soot on the tail of your car. You are not fully understanding the premise, if you improve the breathing capacity of the engine over stock, you need to improve the fuel flow to match. If the system is already matched, IE stoich at cruise and part throttle and 12.5 ish at WOT, more fuel doesn't do a bit of good."
I don't disagree with any of that(and yeah, i understand what's at play, lol), i'm just stating that if you have a 14:1 fixed AFR and increase it to 12:1 you'll make more power.
Nothing more.
07-22-2005, 07:06 PM
#89
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Originally Posted by Red UFO
Disclaimer: I seldom stick up for Randy, and one of his critics butt:...
Re: sending Paul a message before banning him - on several occasions in the past I have counseled him on his tone and demeanor. It appeared this was the time to escalate.
Tim - think of it this way: Say you are running for political office. One of your backers, who you are close to, begins a spirited negative publicity campaign against your opponent. If you do nothing to squelch those tactics, you are in effect supporting them. Spin it any way you like - that's the way I see it.
As a Moderator, I am expected to be fair and impartial, but just as a law Judge applies real-world experience and their own opinions in making decisions, so do I. I may not always be right, but then again, who is.
