Dynos - Let's talk about them
03-29-2021, 11:24 AM
#76
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Here you go, no posts removed, just moved to a more appropriate thread.
03-29-2021, 03:55 PM
#77
Race Car
And it's really great that you have access to so many fantastic 928 fabricators and have the greatest 928 track car, ever created.!
Over here, it's pretty much just me, creating stuff out of my own little cave, out of my own little head, on my own time, while I try to make a living working on 928's.
Over here, it's pretty much just me, creating stuff out of my own little cave, out of my own little head, on my own time, while I try to make a living working on 928's.
The proof is in his 6.4L engine which has well over 10+ racing seasons, 100+ racing hours, and to this day dyno's within 1 rwhp as the day he got it. No ring refreshes, nothing. An engine that is raced and dyno's at 380 rwhp for well over 10 years now. No other 928 stroker engine even comes close to that longevity.
Who in the world built that angrily-raced, ultra-reliable, sweet-songed-exhaust 32v engine?
...It was Todd in Green Bay Wisconsin.
And now we have a couple more guys, from across the pond, who demonstrated vision and imagination, and dreamed-up and executed a bold plan to eschew what's been overdone in the past, and opened the eyes of everyone with the idea to use ITB's on 5.0L blocks, and with an end-result of 430 to 450 rwhp possible - with a stock block!
In other words, there is no longer any need to spend $60,000 for a stroker engine and settle for only 360 rwhp. My GT-cammed 5.0 does 320 rwhp - what is the dollar per hp value for an addtional 40 rwhp with a stroker? Not worth it to me, however...
Charles, I believe I read that John Gill's 5.0 did 330 rwhp with the stock intake, and after installing the ITB's, he dyno'd at 450 rwhp. Let's say that costs roughly $5,000 to $7,500 for the hardware, installation, and proper tune - what is the dollar per hp value there? It appears then that you're on the prudent, fast track.
Another benefit of the genius of Alex and John, is that with the ITB's, and despite their massive hp gains, that hp will be very easy on a 5-speed manual transmission since ITB's allow an engine to breath and make high RPM hp like a true sport car, with no driveline-crushing max torque at 2,000 RPM like a stroker with the stock intake. This point should make the 5-speed crowd shout for joy, and also make the automatic guys salivate about the possibility of owning a true 'sporty' engine.
Why wasn't something like this done 10 - 15 years ago on a 5.0 when it has been known for 20+ years that the 32v 928 intake is the bottleneck to making real hp?
I'm not sure, so, a big thanks to Alex and John for finally getting our 928's out of the stone-age, and out of the caves, with their creative, innovative thinking and execution to an age-old, embarrassing, 928 problem!
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Getliquid88 (03-29-2021)
03-29-2021, 04:48 PM
#78
Official Bay Area Patriot
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Not to be an archeologist here but to dig up Greg's point on dyno shopping, I have seen this happen across import and muscle car forums. In fact Hot Rod magazine was NOTORIOUS for inflating dyno numbers on stock LS engines just to brag that they are power makers. Put the car on a different dyno at a more real temperature, octane gas, and that 40-50 HP loss becomes realistic.
Not trying to be a pessimist about power, but keeping it real doesn't break hearts on a car forum
Not trying to be a pessimist about power, but keeping it real doesn't break hearts on a car forum
03-29-2021, 06:16 PM
#79
Rennlist Member
Not to be an archeologist here but to dig up Greg's point on dyno shopping, I have seen this happen across import and muscle car forums. In fact Hot Rod magazine was NOTORIOUS for inflating dyno numbers on stock LS engines just to brag that they are power makers. Put the car on a different dyno at a more real temperature, octane gas, and that 40-50 HP loss becomes realistic.
Not trying to be a pessimist about power, but keeping it real doesn't break hearts on a car forum
Not trying to be a pessimist about power, but keeping it real doesn't break hearts on a car forum
There is always a more powerful 928 somewhere. Todd, Tuomo, John Gill, Greg, old Devek lumps, even Carl Fausett I am sure has made more than one good engine and the list goes on...
I am not selling my set up to make a living or anything. I am not bragging either - I am sure we have left more on the table. As a matter of fact, the car is booked for later on in the year with a proper mapping wizard, as I want drivability good enough to visit a super market car park in rush hour. We used a calibrated Mustang dyno. Wanted to use a friend’s Dynapack to save the rear tyres but I wasn’t even 10th in the queue... Am I pleased - yes, am I bragging about it - hell no!
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Getliquid88 (03-29-2021)
03-29-2021, 06:26 PM
#80
Official Bay Area Patriot
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Hey Cheburator my comment was not implied for offense. Just stating a point. Some tuners out there want to brag about numbers to the point their product becomes a gimmick for a lot of $$$$$. Glad to hear you got the gains that made you happy. Many of us here aren't so lucky.
03-30-2021, 08:07 PM
#81
Race Director
As a person who drove in a freshly rebuilt Rob Rossitto automatic Doc Brown stroker.......it was one of the fastest cars I have ever been in up to that point in my life....the TORQUE was insane it just kept pulling.......did it make 360whp....I dunno, but it sure moved.
A few years later I bought a 2008 BMW M3 with its 4.0L V8 that pulled to 8400rpm....rated at 414hp-295ftlbs.....while it had a far more modern transmission and was only a bit heavier....it didn't have the push that Rob's 928 did.....honestly the last car I drove that had more of a torque push was my C6 Z06...but a 427 in only 3100lbs is going to do that.....
A few years later I bought a 2008 BMW M3 with its 4.0L V8 that pulled to 8400rpm....rated at 414hp-295ftlbs.....while it had a far more modern transmission and was only a bit heavier....it didn't have the push that Rob's 928 did.....honestly the last car I drove that had more of a torque push was my C6 Z06...but a 427 in only 3100lbs is going to do that.....
03-30-2021, 08:52 PM
#82
Former Sponsor
So why you may think you know what happened, you clearly do not.
But thanks for taking another "pot shot" at me.....always appreciated!
03-30-2021, 09:19 PM
#83
Former Sponsor
Alex, I was trying to tell you that Mr. Brown is doing a great job promoting himself and his business. My words were removed by the moderator. How come, do they not want to hear the truth? It is normal for every business man to do his best to promote his business. However, in the US it is sometimes done in a way that would not always be accepted here in the EU which have strict rules for marketing. Do not get too upset!
Åke
Åke
My son, who occasionally reads my posts, thinks I'm an idiot, giving away details, showing what I'm doing, and continuously helping people with their cars.
This is a frequent debate, between us.
His question is always the same: "How does you helping people, telling them how we do things, showing them details about what you make, benefit us?"
The last part of this thread has been a real eye opener.
According to Alex, I'm just reinventing what everyone else has done, better, already.
And according to you, Ake, I'm just self promoting.
Interesting things to ponder.
Here's how Precision Motorwerks is going to handle this stuff, from here on out.
I'm going to retire from talking about details and showing pieces I develop, on Rennlist.
I'll take a generic pictures of the "outside" and tell about the results....no more. (Now, to me, that seems like self promotion, but what do I know?)
Since everyone already knows exactly how to do everything I'm doing....and can do it better, this will eliminate any chance of self promotion.
And I'm going to quit helping people, unless they happen to have questions about something that involves me, directly. (Like Kevin asking about how to fit a secondhand set of my headers.)
Since apparently, my knowledge and my free advice is considered to be self promotion and "driving people away from Rennlist", this action will solve that problem too!
FYVM!
Last edited by GregBBRD; 03-30-2021 at 09:21 PM.
03-31-2021, 02:08 AM
#84
Rennlist Member
This is a small community, guys... I've got huge respect for everyone here who actually builds stuff and gets it on the road, it is all good.
04-02-2021, 04:26 AM
#85
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thats silly. we all are friends here and want to make our cars the best they can be or start over and step up our performance and do it in a way that will last and do the job.
Im here, you are here for that reason i would imagine (as well as you having a business based on your ability to make reliable power and repair / build 928s.
This should be a place to exchange information and debate , whether you are right or wrong. enjoy it.... its about cars and the people here.
Mk oh , and by the way.... did i mention my stroker engine has regulators that keep fuel air ratios at 12:1,,, its raced 120 race days over 15 years..... stock oiling system, stock airbox , stock computers, 85 cams modified for a S4 motor (basically GT cams) stock 2.2 S4 transmission, stock radiator (which has challenges on race day if temps are over 95 degrees), water pump is the one that no one really likes much,.... ride height 110mm front 145mm rear , alignment near 0 toe, caster around 5, camber around 1.8/2.2 front to rear. 315 x30 x18 tires on all corners. sometimes i run 305 sized slicks from cup car rears. 30x650x18 but they are a little tall 27" and of course, always keep 4 race old max amsoil 15-50 racing oil. no transmission coolers, and no external oil coolers. 377rwhp dynoed 2x a year for the last 20 years. (within about 2-3 hp variance max)
Im here, you are here for that reason i would imagine (as well as you having a business based on your ability to make reliable power and repair / build 928s.
This should be a place to exchange information and debate , whether you are right or wrong. enjoy it.... its about cars and the people here.
Mk oh , and by the way.... did i mention my stroker engine has regulators that keep fuel air ratios at 12:1,,, its raced 120 race days over 15 years..... stock oiling system, stock airbox , stock computers, 85 cams modified for a S4 motor (basically GT cams) stock 2.2 S4 transmission, stock radiator (which has challenges on race day if temps are over 95 degrees), water pump is the one that no one really likes much,.... ride height 110mm front 145mm rear , alignment near 0 toe, caster around 5, camber around 1.8/2.2 front to rear. 315 x30 x18 tires on all corners. sometimes i run 305 sized slicks from cup car rears. 30x650x18 but they are a little tall 27" and of course, always keep 4 race old max amsoil 15-50 racing oil. no transmission coolers, and no external oil coolers. 377rwhp dynoed 2x a year for the last 20 years. (within about 2-3 hp variance max)
Interestingly enough, I've always thought that I was very generous with my time and with details about what I'm doing. I've never considered this to be "self promoting".....just sharing 928 stuff with others.
My son, who occasionally reads my posts, thinks I'm an idiot, giving away details, showing what I'm doing, and continuously helping people with their cars.
This is a frequent debate, between us.
His question is always the same: "How does you helping people, telling them how we do things, showing them details about what you make, benefit us?"
The last part of this thread has been a real eye opener.
According to Alex, I'm just reinventing what everyone else has done, better, already.
And according to you, Ake, I'm just self promoting.
Interesting things to ponder.
Here's how Precision Motorwerks is going to handle this stuff, from here on out.
I'm going to retire from talking about details and showing pieces I develop, on Rennlist.
I'll take a generic pictures of the "outside" and tell about the results....no more. (Now, to me, that seems like self promotion, but what do I know?)
Since everyone already knows exactly how to do everything I'm doing....and can do it better, this will eliminate any chance of self promotion.
And I'm going to quit helping people, unless they happen to have questions about something that involves me, directly. (Like Kevin asking about how to fit a secondhand set of my headers.)
Since apparently, my knowledge and my free advice is considered to be self promotion and "driving people away from Rennlist", this action will solve that problem too!
FYVM!
My son, who occasionally reads my posts, thinks I'm an idiot, giving away details, showing what I'm doing, and continuously helping people with their cars.
This is a frequent debate, between us.
His question is always the same: "How does you helping people, telling them how we do things, showing them details about what you make, benefit us?"
The last part of this thread has been a real eye opener.
According to Alex, I'm just reinventing what everyone else has done, better, already.
And according to you, Ake, I'm just self promoting.
Interesting things to ponder.
Here's how Precision Motorwerks is going to handle this stuff, from here on out.
I'm going to retire from talking about details and showing pieces I develop, on Rennlist.
I'll take a generic pictures of the "outside" and tell about the results....no more. (Now, to me, that seems like self promotion, but what do I know?)
Since everyone already knows exactly how to do everything I'm doing....and can do it better, this will eliminate any chance of self promotion.
And I'm going to quit helping people, unless they happen to have questions about something that involves me, directly. (Like Kevin asking about how to fit a secondhand set of my headers.)
Since apparently, my knowledge and my free advice is considered to be self promotion and "driving people away from Rennlist", this action will solve that problem too!
FYVM!
04-02-2021, 04:32 AM
#86
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
So true! yes, there is a way to make his kind of power reliably and without breaking the bank, but when there is a stroker involved, the process gets a little more complicated Todd and co have the right formula... i mean, how can you argue about someone that is taking that motor to redline with near every shift for hours over a weekend for now 15 years.... (i think we put that motor in mid season in 2008) i was just driving it today.. runs like a champ. so much power for the street and still lights up those tires in 3rd gear 
A laughable story Greg. EVERYONE knows that a properly driven, and in proper working order, that there's NO WAY a 360 hp tractor motor will beat at 450 hp motor. You keep repeating the story but neglect to reveal the other car was in bad shape. You 'win'? LOL!
The best raced engine ever built for a 928 is in Mark Kibort's car.
The proof is in his 6.4L engine which has well over 10+ racing seasons, 100+ racing hours, and to this day dyno's within 1 rwhp as the day he got it. No ring refreshes, nothing. An engine that is raced and dyno's at 380 rwhp for well over 10 years now. No other 928 stroker engine even comes close to that longevity.
Who in the world built that angrily-raced, ultra-reliable, sweet-songed-exhaust 32v engine?
...It was Todd in Green Bay Wisconsin.
And now we have a couple more guys, from across the pond, who demonstrated vision and imagination, and dreamed-up and executed a bold plan to eschew what's been overdone in the past, and opened the eyes of everyone with the idea to use ITB's on 5.0L blocks, and with an end-result of 430 to 450 rwhp possible - with a stock block!
In other words, there is no longer any need to spend $60,000 for a stroker engine and settle for only 360 rwhp. My GT-cammed 5.0 does 320 rwhp - what is the dollar per hp value for an addtional 40 rwhp with a stroker? Not worth it to me, however...
Charles, I believe I read that John Gill's 5.0 did 330 rwhp with the stock intake, and after installing the ITB's, he dyno'd at 450 rwhp. Let's say that costs roughly $5,000 to $7,500 for the hardware, installation, and proper tune - what is the dollar per hp value there? It appears then that you're on the prudent, fast track.
Another benefit of the genius of Alex and John, is that with the ITB's, and despite their massive hp gains, that hp will be very easy on a 5-speed manual transmission since ITB's allow an engine to breath and make high RPM hp like a true sport car, with no driveline-crushing max torque at 2,000 RPM like a stroker with the stock intake. This point should make the 5-speed crowd shout for joy, and also make the automatic guys salivate about the possibility of owning a true 'sporty' engine.
Why wasn't something like this done 10 - 15 years ago on a 5.0 when it has been known for 20+ years that the 32v 928 intake is the bottleneck to making real hp?
I'm not sure, so, a big thanks to Alex and John for finally getting our 928's out of the stone-age, and out of the caves, with their creative, innovative thinking and execution to an age-old, embarrassing, 928 problem!
The best raced engine ever built for a 928 is in Mark Kibort's car.
The proof is in his 6.4L engine which has well over 10+ racing seasons, 100+ racing hours, and to this day dyno's within 1 rwhp as the day he got it. No ring refreshes, nothing. An engine that is raced and dyno's at 380 rwhp for well over 10 years now. No other 928 stroker engine even comes close to that longevity.
Who in the world built that angrily-raced, ultra-reliable, sweet-songed-exhaust 32v engine?
...It was Todd in Green Bay Wisconsin.
And now we have a couple more guys, from across the pond, who demonstrated vision and imagination, and dreamed-up and executed a bold plan to eschew what's been overdone in the past, and opened the eyes of everyone with the idea to use ITB's on 5.0L blocks, and with an end-result of 430 to 450 rwhp possible - with a stock block!
In other words, there is no longer any need to spend $60,000 for a stroker engine and settle for only 360 rwhp. My GT-cammed 5.0 does 320 rwhp - what is the dollar per hp value for an addtional 40 rwhp with a stroker? Not worth it to me, however...
Charles, I believe I read that John Gill's 5.0 did 330 rwhp with the stock intake, and after installing the ITB's, he dyno'd at 450 rwhp. Let's say that costs roughly $5,000 to $7,500 for the hardware, installation, and proper tune - what is the dollar per hp value there? It appears then that you're on the prudent, fast track.
Another benefit of the genius of Alex and John, is that with the ITB's, and despite their massive hp gains, that hp will be very easy on a 5-speed manual transmission since ITB's allow an engine to breath and make high RPM hp like a true sport car, with no driveline-crushing max torque at 2,000 RPM like a stroker with the stock intake. This point should make the 5-speed crowd shout for joy, and also make the automatic guys salivate about the possibility of owning a true 'sporty' engine.
Why wasn't something like this done 10 - 15 years ago on a 5.0 when it has been known for 20+ years that the 32v 928 intake is the bottleneck to making real hp?
I'm not sure, so, a big thanks to Alex and John for finally getting our 928's out of the stone-age, and out of the caves, with their creative, innovative thinking and execution to an age-old, embarrassing, 928 problem!
04-02-2021, 04:39 AM
#87
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
After over 50 years in the Porsche only business, I've heard an unimaginable amount of horsepower claims.
I've gotten smart enough to completely ignore these....unless the engine is hooked to a calibrated engine dyno I'm familiar with...and I am actually watching the test (see * notation below.)
And then, I only care about other people's horsepower claims, when they drive by one of my cars...and I've spent my entire life making sure that is an extremely rare event. (I actually can't remember that happening.)
Almost without exception, I'm laughing my a$$ off, as my 360 rwhp car drives away from their 450 rwhp car.
It's one of the best ever feelings!
* Note: Randy Aase is a local Porsche specialty expert (911 guru) and has a DTS dyno, which is used to tune an amazing amount of Porsche engines. Years ago, he was breaking in/testing/tuning an air cooled GT2 turbo engine, for me, and we started talking about horsepower claims. Randy said: "I've never had an air cooled 911 Turbo engine, on my dyno, that made over 600 horsepower and "lived" through the testing session. However, by some magical event, between the time we dyno the engine and the time it gets home, almost all of these engines make way over 600hp. It's amazing at what happens in the bed of a pick-up truck."
I've gotten smart enough to completely ignore these....unless the engine is hooked to a calibrated engine dyno I'm familiar with...and I am actually watching the test (see * notation below.)
And then, I only care about other people's horsepower claims, when they drive by one of my cars...and I've spent my entire life making sure that is an extremely rare event. (I actually can't remember that happening.)
Almost without exception, I'm laughing my a$$ off, as my 360 rwhp car drives away from their 450 rwhp car.
It's one of the best ever feelings!
* Note: Randy Aase is a local Porsche specialty expert (911 guru) and has a DTS dyno, which is used to tune an amazing amount of Porsche engines. Years ago, he was breaking in/testing/tuning an air cooled GT2 turbo engine, for me, and we started talking about horsepower claims. Randy said: "I've never had an air cooled 911 Turbo engine, on my dyno, that made over 600 horsepower and "lived" through the testing session. However, by some magical event, between the time we dyno the engine and the time it gets home, almost all of these engines make way over 600hp. It's amazing at what happens in the bed of a pick-up truck."