1983 Porsche 944 Garage find (29 yr hibernation)
01-18-2016, 04:59 PM
#151
Three Wheelin'
well you have part of it right.
'82 and '83 cars use the 7x16 FUCHS all around; squared up on the car as they say.
'84 and '85.1 (only) use the 7x15 and 8x15 staggers.
OR, the 7x15 ATS cookies for all series one cars. This is how these 944s were offered by Porsche as from the factory. It can be seen on the door jamb sticker, the Monroney sheet, and backed up by the commensurate Owner's Manuals.
Many went to the parts counters and ordered up larger wheel options and added them later when new, OR have switched into used wheels of these fitments later. This is how some with 23 mm e/t in 8x16 have gotten on the early cars, which were originally fit to 911 and '86 - 944s. Look for the accompanying prefix on the part number, (951) designating turbo 944 wheels and you know they were NOT originally fit to a series one. That and verification of date codes.
Series 2 cars came with a larger variety of options including the one year only FUCHS with 23 mm e/t and the shallow face on the fronts which were 7x16.
Of course, most any and all wheels may be cross switched if Concouring/ judging is no concern and a certain width or look is desired. This is completed by using the appropriate spacers needed for track width of the 944. As easily seen in a 'going down the road' profile OR measurements of track width.
I am glad you have found this helpful and encouraging. The car you have is a wonderful example needing preservation and acute regimen to retention of it's proper heritage. I feel it's ok to use something else other than original as long as it remains an addendum and NOT used as a standard of originality. That is how history is obscured and rewritten, consequently accuracy is forgotten. This car deserves an accurate story; after all it has remained so for this many years. AND, survived.
Why alter a good thing ?
'82 and '83 cars use the 7x16 FUCHS all around; squared up on the car as they say.
'84 and '85.1 (only) use the 7x15 and 8x15 staggers.
OR, the 7x15 ATS cookies for all series one cars. This is how these 944s were offered by Porsche as from the factory. It can be seen on the door jamb sticker, the Monroney sheet, and backed up by the commensurate Owner's Manuals.
Many went to the parts counters and ordered up larger wheel options and added them later when new, OR have switched into used wheels of these fitments later. This is how some with 23 mm e/t in 8x16 have gotten on the early cars, which were originally fit to 911 and '86 - 944s. Look for the accompanying prefix on the part number, (951) designating turbo 944 wheels and you know they were NOT originally fit to a series one. That and verification of date codes.
Series 2 cars came with a larger variety of options including the one year only FUCHS with 23 mm e/t and the shallow face on the fronts which were 7x16.
Of course, most any and all wheels may be cross switched if Concouring/ judging is no concern and a certain width or look is desired. This is completed by using the appropriate spacers needed for track width of the 944. As easily seen in a 'going down the road' profile OR measurements of track width.
I am glad you have found this helpful and encouraging. The car you have is a wonderful example needing preservation and acute regimen to retention of it's proper heritage. I feel it's ok to use something else other than original as long as it remains an addendum and NOT used as a standard of originality. That is how history is obscured and rewritten, consequently accuracy is forgotten. This car deserves an accurate story; after all it has remained so for this many years. AND, survived.
Why alter a good thing ?
01-18-2016, 05:24 PM
#152
Three Wheelin'
I should mention here something which doesn't get talked about much any more. The issues Porsche and it's new buyers were having with wheel shake or vibration in the steering wheel of the early , non power steering cars.
They did a lot of monkey motion trying wheel sizings, wheel balancings, steering knuckle replacements, and checking true on cast and forged wheels to solve it. Some even had tie rod end replacements as well. The local dealership even ordered out a new set of Cookies and a new set of FUCHS for two individuals who were very upset at the issue which usually showed up at 50 to 70 mph.
Virtually ALL issues were resolved by way of the introduction of the '84- 944 with power steering along with the smaller wheel diameter (15 inch) in the staggered 7 and 8 inch fitment. I know my '82 built car shows paperwork at the dealer trying to solve this with the mounted 7x16 FUCHS. The steering knuckle by the firewall was also replaced.
The car today exhibits NO wheel shake or vibration, but I lay part of the issue on the fact it now wears Kumho Ecsta gummy rubber as well as a proper high speed wheel balance job all the way to 150 mph on the balancer machine. NOT the crappy tires it was fitted with back in the day when it came from the factory. Usually 'repellis' or 'dumbflops'.
They did a lot of monkey motion trying wheel sizings, wheel balancings, steering knuckle replacements, and checking true on cast and forged wheels to solve it. Some even had tie rod end replacements as well. The local dealership even ordered out a new set of Cookies and a new set of FUCHS for two individuals who were very upset at the issue which usually showed up at 50 to 70 mph.
Virtually ALL issues were resolved by way of the introduction of the '84- 944 with power steering along with the smaller wheel diameter (15 inch) in the staggered 7 and 8 inch fitment. I know my '82 built car shows paperwork at the dealer trying to solve this with the mounted 7x16 FUCHS. The steering knuckle by the firewall was also replaced.
The car today exhibits NO wheel shake or vibration, but I lay part of the issue on the fact it now wears Kumho Ecsta gummy rubber as well as a proper high speed wheel balance job all the way to 150 mph on the balancer machine. NOT the crappy tires it was fitted with back in the day when it came from the factory. Usually 'repellis' or 'dumbflops'.
01-18-2016, 09:57 PM
#153
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I am glad you have found this helpful and encouraging. The car you have is a wonderful example needing preservation and acute regimen to retention of it's proper heritage. I feel it's ok to use something else other than original as long as it remains an addendum and NOT used as a standard of originality. That is how history is obscured and rewritten, consequently accuracy is forgotten. This car deserves an accurate story; after all it has remained so for this many years. AND, survived.
Why alter a good thing ?
Why alter a good thing ?
Very well said. My Porsche mechanic respected the car's original and unrestored condition so much that at one point when he was replacing the front ball joints, which required that he drill out some rivets (see prior pics), he opted to leave the factory rivets and simply change only the rubber part of the ball joint.
I get that these cars are only original once. That's what attracted me to the car in the first place.
On a side, I ordered and replaced the hood shocks and hatch struts and kept the originals with the rest of the original removed parts.
The only other thing the car needs is some sunshine and a detail!
01-18-2016, 10:25 PM
#154
Three Wheelin'
~~~~ and a grinning, happy driver grasping the steering wheel and gleefully feeling the g-loads on his backside.
Running the twisties and switchbacks, kicking it down a gear and making the revs climb to redline. Threshold braking before an apex, and reeling it in before scrubbing off the last of the speed with a slight four wheel drift.....
the stuff these cars excel in. You have found a great soul mate. Treat her well, as you already have in bringing her back to a good life
Running the twisties and switchbacks, kicking it down a gear and making the revs climb to redline. Threshold braking before an apex, and reeling it in before scrubbing off the last of the speed with a slight four wheel drift.....
the stuff these cars excel in. You have found a great soul mate. Treat her well, as you already have in bringing her back to a good life
01-19-2016, 11:33 AM
#155
Just a car guy
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These were also available through 86 (after which offset changed due to the provisions for ABS).
01-20-2016, 03:14 AM
#158
Three Wheelin'
Byron,
am pretty sure if you had been able to check the date codes on those FUCHS, you would have seen a different and later date from the year of manufacture to your car.
They may have also been take offs from a 911.
All you have to do is check the owner's manuals or the door jamb stickers to '82 and '83 cars and one will see what is listed there. The staggers came later in the model series and may have been available as early as June or July of '83, but they would have been fitted to an '84 car. Check for build code options on the white tag, under rear carpet, fitted to the body panel near the left rear tail light for #347 or #395 denoting a 7x16 light forged alloy ( FUCHS ) in an '82/'83 - 944 as opposed to # 401 denoting a light forged alloy or FUCHS denoting the staggered 7 and 8 x 15 inch as on the '84 and '85.1 cars. ATS cast wheels didn't show a # code because they were the standard fitment and not the optional available wheel as an upgrade at extra expense.
I tried to order my first 944 out with wider wheels, but was told they were N/A at that time for an early '83. My first 944 finally came in to the dealer after a year and a half wait, and it WAS fitted with the 7 and 8 x15s.
But the car came in so far down the list, it was an '84 model. And everything came in correct except the seats, which were ordered as Grey Beige Sport Seats, but came as regular seats. ( Porsche replied they were having issues with Recaro supplying the sport seats because of the volume ordered with them. ) It is an H52 package, Weissach prepped unit with M456 suspension, LSD, Koni shocks, sport springs, hd bars, etc. I still own it after all these years and have added more like it to the group, some with a slight variety of options such as sunroof delete or stereo delete, etc. Of those cars, every '84 has the 7 and 8 inch by 15 staggers in FUCHS, but the '82 and '83 cars have the 7x16 inch wheels all around, made that way by Porsche on the day they were hammered together. These are by the way, all low mileage, mostly 1 and two owner cars with complete histories denoting nearly every thing ever done by their owners or the dealerships and have their Monroney stickers and original books and build codes to back them up.
am pretty sure if you had been able to check the date codes on those FUCHS, you would have seen a different and later date from the year of manufacture to your car.
They may have also been take offs from a 911.
All you have to do is check the owner's manuals or the door jamb stickers to '82 and '83 cars and one will see what is listed there. The staggers came later in the model series and may have been available as early as June or July of '83, but they would have been fitted to an '84 car. Check for build code options on the white tag, under rear carpet, fitted to the body panel near the left rear tail light for #347 or #395 denoting a 7x16 light forged alloy ( FUCHS ) in an '82/'83 - 944 as opposed to # 401 denoting a light forged alloy or FUCHS denoting the staggered 7 and 8 x 15 inch as on the '84 and '85.1 cars. ATS cast wheels didn't show a # code because they were the standard fitment and not the optional available wheel as an upgrade at extra expense.
I tried to order my first 944 out with wider wheels, but was told they were N/A at that time for an early '83. My first 944 finally came in to the dealer after a year and a half wait, and it WAS fitted with the 7 and 8 x15s.
But the car came in so far down the list, it was an '84 model. And everything came in correct except the seats, which were ordered as Grey Beige Sport Seats, but came as regular seats. ( Porsche replied they were having issues with Recaro supplying the sport seats because of the volume ordered with them. ) It is an H52 package, Weissach prepped unit with M456 suspension, LSD, Koni shocks, sport springs, hd bars, etc. I still own it after all these years and have added more like it to the group, some with a slight variety of options such as sunroof delete or stereo delete, etc. Of those cars, every '84 has the 7 and 8 inch by 15 staggers in FUCHS, but the '82 and '83 cars have the 7x16 inch wheels all around, made that way by Porsche on the day they were hammered together. These are by the way, all low mileage, mostly 1 and two owner cars with complete histories denoting nearly every thing ever done by their owners or the dealerships and have their Monroney stickers and original books and build codes to back them up.
Last edited by mrgreenjeans; 01-20-2016 at 11:44 AM.
01-20-2016, 06:24 AM
#159
Instructor
Thanks to all for sharing information. I made notes and it's my understanding that 83/84 944 FUCHS were all 7x16 and 8x16 et23. Early 911 of similar yrs with Fuchs may have et10.
Regardless, I really enjoyed the pics. Acts wheels are nice, but the Fuchs really make the car pop. I'm on the hunt for a set...
Regardless, I really enjoyed the pics. Acts wheels are nice, but the Fuchs really make the car pop. I'm on the hunt for a set...
CTK, I have a set of 7x16's if you have interest PM me.
01-20-2016, 12:25 PM
#160
Three Wheelin'
The early '82 and '83 cars didn't have an automatic electric release switch on the kick panel by the hood release as other later models have. This alleviates the oft played scenario of an 'opening into the wind', or a quick and sudden jarring as the hatch pops open.
ONE of the things which strain the frames on the hatch and separate glass from frame. The other things which harm the frame attaching points and cause glass separation, are allowing the glass to 'twist' when closing by the improper technique of shutting the hatch with one hand. Usually off side and non-centered.
When I picked up my car new, the dealer ( actually the franchise owner, Vance Pressler .... a diehard, AVID Porsche-Audi-VW enthusiast, with a serious "in" with Porsche ) showed me how to close it and open it. Put whatever it is you are loading on the ground. Open the hatch with the Key and controlling the upward rise s-l-o-w-l-y with both hands at the ends of spoiler near the locking points, allow it to come to a stop at the top without a jarring action. When closing it, simply do the same , with BOTH hands near those lock points, slowly snugging it into the recesses and securing it.
Slamming it or one handing the hatch will stress the glue and eventually tear the frame from the glass.
Too strong of aftermarket gas strut replacements is also a problem as they are always putting too much 'push' against the hatch, even at rest. Porsche struts may cost a bit more, but they are not the Arnold Schwartzenegger of the gas strut world. They were made to perform to Porsche standards.
The other thing is of course the aforementioned use of the inside switch into a 40 mph wind, driving the hatch hard up against the frame, very quickly, and probably twisting it at the same time.
Cold weather use. Opening the hatch with cold strut seals will quickly fatigue the seals and allow the gas to escape. People are then frustrated and slam the hatch or allow it to drop hard, jarring the frame.
Time and U/V exposure. Just good old overuse. Eventually the frame will fatigue and it will come unglued from the glass. Adding in the equation of worn struts, improper closings, wind, twisting, one hand closing, and VOILA'.
Another hatch glass and frame bites the dust.
On hood struts, it is the overreach one has to do in replacing those... and this job nearly takes 2 people so as not to allow the hood to extend up too far and bite down into the glass or aluminum side trim, kinking the hood corners or at the very least bending the trim. Which at one time was NLA.
Take a look at a lot of used 944s and one will readily see an abundance of this very problem. I have one I bought which was perfectly unblemished, until I noticed who ever replaced the struts ( dealer ..... as the bill indicated ) placed his hand into the soft foam under the hood and left his whole hand print permanently embedded. This foam is also NLA from Porsche. And, if it had taken two folks to do this simple two minute job, the hood underside would still be pristine. It drives me nuts every time I check the oil
01-20-2016, 12:56 PM
#161
Three Wheelin'
Scott's '89- M030 made just a few hundred serial numbers after mine. His is Glacier Blue, mine Satin Black metallic and with CUP chip, two sets of wheels, black leather. Linen interior in this one; both low mile survivors .....
My friend's Sapphire '89- M030, made several hundred numbers past my own M030 in Satin Black.
These are the very desirable FUCHS Club Sports in 16 in, which a majority of '89s wore.
Your car CTK, has to be close in color if not identical. The Audi name was Glacier Blue and is also a seldom seen metallic, appearing on the '89-'90 - 200 Turbo as well. They all came from the same factory , undoubtedly using the same paints but using a different name.
Scott's car has linen leather interior and has around 40,xxx miles.
01-20-2016, 01:22 PM
#162
Three Wheelin'
The burgundy Sport Seats from my 28,xxx mile '86- R74 Sport Touring package 944. Note the different shape and heavy bolsters which are so very unique to the flatter series two cars with regular seating. They are also VERY different from the standard OR the Sport seats made by Recaro for the series one cars.
If one ever has opportunity to grab a set, DO SO. No questions asked. They are tremendous seats giving a supportive positioning for track or long distance drives. But, they are correct for 'proper representing' of a series two car only. And good ones are rarely seen or made available for sale.
(anyone know why some of these images upload so small ?)
01-20-2016, 01:40 PM
#163
Three Wheelin'
Dealer installed front and rear floor mats, available over the parts counter from Porsche, script inscribed in the fabric
'86 burgundy Porsche floor mats in script. Also were available plain , they are a very heavy , well made mat. Lloyds mats are similar, but the Porsche ones have a foam rubber backing with Porsche scripting printed in the foam rubber.
Seldom are 'originals' seen today. These came with the car when purchased new at a Denver dealership, and are included on the upcharge Monroney or the dealer added sticker.
I don't think one may buy new ones from Porsche for a 944 or 951, but may be obtained from Lloyds Mats as aftermarket replacements.
01-20-2016, 09:35 PM
#164
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Since you have fitted the new rear hatch struts, I recommend you are VERY careful about closing and opening the rear hatch.
The early '82 and '83 cars didn't have an automatic electric release switch on the kick panel by the hood release as other later models have. This alleviates the oft played scenario of an 'opening into the wind', or a quick and sudden jarring as the hatch pops open.
ONE of the things which strain the frames on the hatch and separate glass from frame. The other things which harm the frame attaching points and cause glass separation, are allowing the glass to 'twist' when closing by the improper technique of shutting the hatch with one hand. Usually off side and non-centered.
When I picked up my car new, the dealer ( actually the franchise owner, Vance Pressler .... a diehard, AVID Porsche-Audi-VW enthusiast, with a serious "in" with Porsche ) showed me how to close it and open it. Put whatever it is you are loading on the ground. Open the hatch with the Key and controlling the upward rise s-l-o-w-l-y with both hands at the ends of spoiler near the locking points, allow it to come to a stop at the top without a jarring action. When closing it, simply do the same , with BOTH hands near those lock points, slowly snugging it into the recesses and securing it.
Slamming it or one handing the hatch will stress the glue and eventually tear the frame from the glass.
Too strong of aftermarket gas strut replacements is also a problem as they are always putting too much 'push' against the hatch, even at rest. Porsche struts may cost a bit more, but they are not the Arnold Schwartzenegger of the gas strut world. They were made to perform to Porsche standards.
The other thing is of course the aforementioned use of the inside switch into a 40 mph wind, driving the hatch hard up against the frame, very quickly, and probably twisting it at the same time.
Cold weather use. Opening the hatch with cold strut seals will quickly fatigue the seals and allow the gas to escape. People are then frustrated and slam the hatch or allow it to drop hard, jarring the frame.
Time and U/V exposure. Just good old overuse. Eventually the frame will fatigue and it will come unglued from the glass. Adding in the equation of worn struts, improper closings, wind, twisting, one hand closing, and VOILA'.
Another hatch glass and frame bites the dust.
On hood struts, it is the overreach one has to do in replacing those... and this job nearly takes 2 people so as not to allow the hood to extend up too far and bite down into the glass or aluminum side trim, kinking the hood corners or at the very least bending the trim. Which at one time was NLA.
Take a look at a lot of used 944s and one will readily see an abundance of this very problem. I have one I bought which was perfectly unblemished, until I noticed who ever replaced the struts ( dealer ..... as the bill indicated ) placed his hand into the soft foam under the hood and left his whole hand print permanently embedded. This foam is also NLA from Porsche. And, if it had taken two folks to do this simple two minute job, the hood underside would still be pristine. It drives me nuts every time I check the oil
The early '82 and '83 cars didn't have an automatic electric release switch on the kick panel by the hood release as other later models have. This alleviates the oft played scenario of an 'opening into the wind', or a quick and sudden jarring as the hatch pops open.
ONE of the things which strain the frames on the hatch and separate glass from frame. The other things which harm the frame attaching points and cause glass separation, are allowing the glass to 'twist' when closing by the improper technique of shutting the hatch with one hand. Usually off side and non-centered.
When I picked up my car new, the dealer ( actually the franchise owner, Vance Pressler .... a diehard, AVID Porsche-Audi-VW enthusiast, with a serious "in" with Porsche ) showed me how to close it and open it. Put whatever it is you are loading on the ground. Open the hatch with the Key and controlling the upward rise s-l-o-w-l-y with both hands at the ends of spoiler near the locking points, allow it to come to a stop at the top without a jarring action. When closing it, simply do the same , with BOTH hands near those lock points, slowly snugging it into the recesses and securing it.
Slamming it or one handing the hatch will stress the glue and eventually tear the frame from the glass.
Too strong of aftermarket gas strut replacements is also a problem as they are always putting too much 'push' against the hatch, even at rest. Porsche struts may cost a bit more, but they are not the Arnold Schwartzenegger of the gas strut world. They were made to perform to Porsche standards.
The other thing is of course the aforementioned use of the inside switch into a 40 mph wind, driving the hatch hard up against the frame, very quickly, and probably twisting it at the same time.
Cold weather use. Opening the hatch with cold strut seals will quickly fatigue the seals and allow the gas to escape. People are then frustrated and slam the hatch or allow it to drop hard, jarring the frame.
Time and U/V exposure. Just good old overuse. Eventually the frame will fatigue and it will come unglued from the glass. Adding in the equation of worn struts, improper closings, wind, twisting, one hand closing, and VOILA'.
Another hatch glass and frame bites the dust.
On hood struts, it is the overreach one has to do in replacing those... and this job nearly takes 2 people so as not to allow the hood to extend up too far and bite down into the glass or aluminum side trim, kinking the hood corners or at the very least bending the trim. Which at one time was NLA.
Take a look at a lot of used 944s and one will readily see an abundance of this very problem. I have one I bought which was perfectly unblemished, until I noticed who ever replaced the struts ( dealer ..... as the bill indicated ) placed his hand into the soft foam under the hood and left his whole hand print permanently embedded. This foam is also NLA from Porsche. And, if it had taken two folks to do this simple two minute job, the hood underside would still be pristine. It drives me nuts every time I check the oil
The hood shocks are universal, left or right. The hatch struts are directional, left and right so that the rear defrost can connect.
I will be very careful when opening the rear hatch. I will make sure that it opens evenly.
01-20-2016, 09:36 PM
#165
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Scott's '89- M030 made just a few hundred serial numbers after mine. His is Glacier Blue, mine Satin Black metallic and with CUP chip, two sets of wheels, black leather. Linen interior in this one; both low mile survivors .....
My friend's Sapphire '89- M030, made several hundred numbers past my own M030 in Satin Black.
These are the very desirable FUCHS Club Sports in 16 in, which a majority of '89s wore.
Your car CTK, has to be close in color if not identical. The Audi name was Glacier Blue and is also a seldom seen metallic, appearing on the '89-'90 - 200 Turbo as well. They all came from the same factory , undoubtedly using the same paints but using a different name.
Scott's car has linen leather interior and has around 40,xxx miles.
Looks like there is a cage and extra negative camber on the rear. Track car?