Trackable 944 supension on a budget???
03-25-2005, 10:54 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
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Trackable 944 supension on a budget???
Hey gang...
I am wondering what I can do to improve the grip/handling without spending an arm and a leg.
I would like new springs/shocks (I'm sure mine are tired), and perhaps new torsion bars...but I want it to be BALANCED. I see a lot of people stiffen the front by 40% (springs) but they leave the rear suspension stock. This confuses me...doesn't this upset the balance of the car?
Anyway...I want it street-friendly, but firm. If 1 is a commuter car, and 10 is a trailer queen race car, I'm looking for about a 5-6 on that scale.
So what springs/shocks/torsions are my best bet? Can some of the 944 racers chime in and help me out?
Are the "hacksaw Koni's" from Paragon enough to dampen 250-300 lb front springs, and an aftermarket T-bar setup? Would bigger sway bars be more bang for my buck? I'd like to get out under a grand if possible...the cheaper the better, as long as the job gets done.
Please help! Thanks!
I am wondering what I can do to improve the grip/handling without spending an arm and a leg.
I would like new springs/shocks (I'm sure mine are tired), and perhaps new torsion bars...but I want it to be BALANCED. I see a lot of people stiffen the front by 40% (springs) but they leave the rear suspension stock. This confuses me...doesn't this upset the balance of the car?
Anyway...I want it street-friendly, but firm. If 1 is a commuter car, and 10 is a trailer queen race car, I'm looking for about a 5-6 on that scale.
So what springs/shocks/torsions are my best bet? Can some of the 944 racers chime in and help me out?
Are the "hacksaw Koni's" from Paragon enough to dampen 250-300 lb front springs, and an aftermarket T-bar setup? Would bigger sway bars be more bang for my buck? I'd like to get out under a grand if possible...the cheaper the better, as long as the job gets done.
Please help! Thanks!
03-26-2005, 12:24 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
A car with stiffer front springs will feel better until you reach the limit. Then your car is a piece of crap, handling wise.
I would only go over 250# for a dedicated track car. Its too much of a compromise for street driving...not because of driver comfort but because your car will be jumping around over every little bump. For a race only 944, I've seen racers use 400-500 lb springs.
If the car will be used for both track and street, i suggest the following.
Get a used set of 26.8/18 mm sway bars ~100
Bilsteins on all 4 ~<400
220-250# springs ~100
26-27mm rear torsion bars ~<300
That would be a very good setup and easily streetable.
Oh, and I'm no 944 racer so feel free to disregard my comments
I would only go over 250# for a dedicated track car. Its too much of a compromise for street driving...not because of driver comfort but because your car will be jumping around over every little bump. For a race only 944, I've seen racers use 400-500 lb springs.
If the car will be used for both track and street, i suggest the following.
Get a used set of 26.8/18 mm sway bars ~100
Bilsteins on all 4 ~<400
220-250# springs ~100
26-27mm rear torsion bars ~<300
That would be a very good setup and easily streetable.
Oh, and I'm no 944 racer so feel free to disregard my comments
03-26-2005, 12:25 AM
#3
Nordschleife Master
Sounds like you've done some homework. I've been looking into the same thing: want it streetable but firm.
Pleanty in the archives, but here's a thread I started on this:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...4&page=2&pp=40
People don't go for the torsion bars because they are a difficult swap. A rear coil-over setup ain't cheap, either.
This is what I'm doing on my '87 N/A.
Fronts:
200lb/in springs
Used turbo struts, mainly for the duct mounts
26.8mm sway bar
Rears:
23.5mm torsion bars, (stock)
Koni sport shocks (set +1)
18mm sway bar
I've talked it over with a few people and this seemed like a good starting point. It'd be nice to upgrade one or two things at a time. Keeping a balance tends to make that hard.
Planned to go with 250# fronts but got some nice 200# Eibachs cheap off eBay. They'll go in without any mods so that's a plus.
Getting to it this weekend.
Pleanty in the archives, but here's a thread I started on this:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...4&page=2&pp=40
People don't go for the torsion bars because they are a difficult swap. A rear coil-over setup ain't cheap, either.
This is what I'm doing on my '87 N/A.
Fronts:
200lb/in springs
Used turbo struts, mainly for the duct mounts
26.8mm sway bar
Rears:
23.5mm torsion bars, (stock)
Koni sport shocks (set +1)
18mm sway bar
I've talked it over with a few people and this seemed like a good starting point. It'd be nice to upgrade one or two things at a time. Keeping a balance tends to make that hard.
Planned to go with 250# fronts but got some nice 200# Eibachs cheap off eBay. They'll go in without any mods so that's a plus.
Getting to it this weekend.
03-26-2005, 01:15 AM
#5
Three Wheelin'
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I've heard that simply changing the front springs without doing anything to the rear will dramatically screw up the handling of the car.
That's why I'm thinking...without changing the torsion bar in the rear, then you're running a stock "spring" in the rear, and then a stiffer spring in the front. It doesn't make sense!
Anywho...thanks for the ideas! What rear torsions are commonly available in the aftermarket, and what front spring rate will match the aftermarket rear bars?
03-26-2005, 01:16 AM
#6
Nordschleife Master
200# springs front, M030 19mm rear bar, Turbo front swaybar, blisten sports on all four corners, good alignment.
That right there would be a repectable setup for about the least amount of $$$ that you can get.
That right there would be a repectable setup for about the least amount of $$$ that you can get.
03-26-2005, 01:22 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
A swaybar should not be used to counter stiffer springs. They serve a different purpose...to fine-tune the suspension.
Everyone is so eager to stiffen front springs because theyre easy and cheap.
If you're gonna go something, do it right.
Everyone is so eager to stiffen front springs because theyre easy and cheap.
If you're gonna go something, do it right.
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03-26-2005, 01:25 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
mm - lbs
26 - 189
27 - 220
28 - 254
29 - 292
30 - 335
31 - 382
32 - 434
33 - 490
stock: 23.5 - 126 So keep in mind that the springs are a little biased as stock na front springs are ~140 lbs.
26 - 189
27 - 220
28 - 254
29 - 292
30 - 335
31 - 382
32 - 434
33 - 490
stock: 23.5 - 126 So keep in mind that the springs are a little biased as stock na front springs are ~140 lbs.
03-26-2005, 02:44 AM
#9
Three Wheelin'
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Serge...THANK YOU! Good rear bar info there. Is Weltmeister the only company making an aftermarket rear setup?
As of right now, I like the sound of 250# front springs, and 28.5mm hollow T-bars in the rear (appx 220#). This keeps the Fr/Rr relationship very similar to stock.
Now I have to think about which front springs, and which shocks. I guess Koni and Bilstein are my only choices!
Bilstein Sports would be stiff enough to handle those spring rates I think. What would the Koni equivalent be? Which is typically more expensive? Any suggestions here?
Thanks again!
As of right now, I like the sound of 250# front springs, and 28.5mm hollow T-bars in the rear (appx 220#). This keeps the Fr/Rr relationship very similar to stock.
Now I have to think about which front springs, and which shocks. I guess Koni and Bilstein are my only choices!
Bilstein Sports would be stiff enough to handle those spring rates I think. What would the Koni equivalent be? Which is typically more expensive? Any suggestions here?
Thanks again!
03-26-2005, 03:14 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
Bilstein HDs are a cost effective all around shock and has very good valving. You can find significantly under 100 each. Koni sports are a little overrated. Sure, they are adjustable, but shock dynos prove that bilsteins have a quicker reaction time.
Hollow bars are lighter, but significantly more expensive. Theres also a company called sway-a-way. www.gprparts.com has a sale and theyre going for $229. They also have weltmeister swaybars 20% off, which, if you can afford it, is an excellent way to go.
Hollow bars are lighter, but significantly more expensive. Theres also a company called sway-a-way. www.gprparts.com has a sale and theyre going for $229. They also have weltmeister swaybars 20% off, which, if you can afford it, is an excellent way to go.
03-26-2005, 04:02 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
Better track and really cheap = 968 M030 sways
Better track and still cheap = above + Paragon Koni yellows (rear near full stiff)
Better track and not cheap = above + springs all around (pick your rates)
Better track and expensive = ditch above and go full adjustable coil-overs (pick your rates)
Of these, I have done #1 and #2. I am starting #4 tomorrow on the 968. #1 was great bang for the buck at the track (much better rotation). #2 was a delight for both street and track as the original shocks/struts on my '88 944 NA had 140k+ miles at the time and were SHOT (LOVE the adjustment **** on the struts). #4 is full out race set-up that I still intend to drive on the street. Only time will tell if that's realistic.
Better track and still cheap = above + Paragon Koni yellows (rear near full stiff)
Better track and not cheap = above + springs all around (pick your rates)
Better track and expensive = ditch above and go full adjustable coil-overs (pick your rates)
Of these, I have done #1 and #2. I am starting #4 tomorrow on the 968. #1 was great bang for the buck at the track (much better rotation). #2 was a delight for both street and track as the original shocks/struts on my '88 944 NA had 140k+ miles at the time and were SHOT (LOVE the adjustment **** on the struts). #4 is full out race set-up that I still intend to drive on the street. Only time will tell if that's realistic.
03-26-2005, 04:57 AM
#13
Three Wheelin'
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Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile
I've heard that simply changing the front springs without doing anything to the rear will dramatically screw up the handling of the car.
03-26-2005, 05:34 AM
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Several points........
1- Only two companies make sway bars- Sway Away & one other (can't remember name)- Weltmeister get's their's from one of these companies...
2- I looked for HOLLOW sways awhile back- they are no longer made in standard sizes- I called everyone... IF you find any, PLEASE let me know- looking for 28mm...
******Sean- a 28.5mm bar is 273lbs .... you list it as ~220lbs- I assume you are referring to ACTUAL diameter....? Most places use effective rate diameters to keep things consistent- be careful when ordering, again, IF you do find hollows, &, again, PLEASE let me know if you do... I have a pair of 27mm solid t-bars that were NEVER installed that I would make a decent deal on...
3- My personal experience- I put non-adj Leda oil shocks on my Turbo S- assumed they were normal gas shocks when I ordered these will soon be for sale, cheap.... They were valved for 250's- I now have 275's up front & 100lb helpers on rear (~235lbs)- the rear stiffness feels great & this is only slightly stiffer than 27mm's (~220lbs). I'm replacing t-bars this time- I recommend avoiding rear springs- helper, OR, coil-overs, unless track only...
4- I honestly believe these cars are undersprung. I don't believe my rates have much to do w/my poor ride quality & skipping issues, etc... I honestly believe it's the shocks- either defective, or, misvalved, etc... I'm now torn b/t Bilsteins & Konis. I'm sending my Turbo S Koni's to Paragon to be rebuilt & made DBL adj. Then, I'll either buy their rear Cup shocks (w/out springs), OR, I'll use Bilsteins all around & save the front Koni's for something else. For Bilsteins, I'm mainly looking at Firehawks (AK1110-A & AK1111-A).
5- Does anyone here know the valving for Bilstein HD's?
6- I agree completely w/everyone who's advised changing rears too- I've heard of people going all the way to 300lb fronts w/out changing rear rates- this is a HUGE dif- ESPECIALLY for an NA running 23.5's.... My Turbo S squatted like CRAZY w/stock 25.5's....
7- sway bars- Serge is correct- balance your car, front to rear, w/spring rates first- this is the base of your suspension- sways are to fine-tune, not to make up for mismatched rates. '88 Turbo S M030's are 26.8mm/18mm. Later Turbo S went to 16mm rear. I've been told (in recent threads) that normal 951 AND NAs had 18mm rears, SO, Turbo S M030 rears would not be any larger. But, the FRONT IS an improvement. I'm planning on 968 M030's (30mm/19mm 3-way adj) @ ~$400/pr- I'll sell my Turbo S sways at that time.... Aftermarket sways do not seem to match the front to rear ratios of stock sways & are supposedly more difficult to install, etc...
The following is a link to Paragon's tech session page, which shows the effective rates of dif sway bar thicknesses.... It also has other good reference information for suspension rates, etc....
http://www.tech-session.com/kb/index...x_v2&id=22&c=4
1- Only two companies make sway bars- Sway Away & one other (can't remember name)- Weltmeister get's their's from one of these companies...
2- I looked for HOLLOW sways awhile back- they are no longer made in standard sizes- I called everyone... IF you find any, PLEASE let me know- looking for 28mm...
******Sean- a 28.5mm bar is 273lbs .... you list it as ~220lbs- I assume you are referring to ACTUAL diameter....? Most places use effective rate diameters to keep things consistent- be careful when ordering, again, IF you do find hollows, &, again, PLEASE let me know if you do... I have a pair of 27mm solid t-bars that were NEVER installed that I would make a decent deal on...
3- My personal experience- I put non-adj Leda oil shocks on my Turbo S- assumed they were normal gas shocks when I ordered
these will soon be for sale, cheap.... They were valved for 250's- I now have 275's up front & 100lb helpers on rear (~235lbs)- the rear stiffness feels great & this is only slightly stiffer than 27mm's (~220lbs). I'm replacing t-bars this time- I recommend avoiding rear springs- helper, OR, coil-overs, unless track only...4- I honestly believe these cars are undersprung. I don't believe my rates have much to do w/my poor ride quality & skipping issues, etc... I honestly believe it's the shocks- either defective, or, misvalved, etc... I'm now torn b/t Bilsteins & Konis. I'm sending my Turbo S Koni's to Paragon to be rebuilt & made DBL adj. Then, I'll either buy their rear Cup shocks (w/out springs), OR, I'll use Bilsteins all around & save the front Koni's for something else. For Bilsteins, I'm mainly looking at Firehawks (AK1110-A & AK1111-A).
5- Does anyone here know the valving for Bilstein HD's?
6- I agree completely w/everyone who's advised changing rears too- I've heard of people going all the way to 300lb fronts w/out changing rear rates- this is a HUGE dif- ESPECIALLY for an NA running 23.5's.... My Turbo S squatted like CRAZY w/stock 25.5's....
7- sway bars- Serge is correct- balance your car, front to rear, w/spring rates first- this is the base of your suspension- sways are to fine-tune, not to make up for mismatched rates. '88 Turbo S M030's are 26.8mm/18mm. Later Turbo S went to 16mm rear. I've been told (in recent threads) that normal 951 AND NAs had 18mm rears, SO, Turbo S M030 rears would not be any larger. But, the FRONT IS an improvement. I'm planning on 968 M030's (30mm/19mm 3-way adj) @ ~$400/pr- I'll sell my Turbo S sways at that time....
Aftermarket sways do not seem to match the front to rear ratios of stock sways & are supposedly more difficult to install, etc... The following is a link to Paragon's tech session page, which shows the effective rates of dif sway bar thicknesses.... It also has other good reference information for suspension rates, etc....
http://www.tech-session.com/kb/index...x_v2&id=22&c=4