joseph mitro

i just finished reading these threads. very interesting. it doesn't really change much though unless you have a huge spring rate. for instance, the 275lb springs i have in the rear mean my overall spring rate changes from 280lb (using 0.56) to 305 (using 0.65).

Robby

ok.... Skip & several other's have always contended that Turbo S springs were linear.... I KNOW the Cup cars were progressive, but.... I see people commenting on the outer diamter of the coils & sometimes the thickness, etc, but, this does not neccessarily tell you whether or not a spring is progressive or linear- I'm not pretending to be a guru here, but, am just curious.... was the Turbo S linear or progressive???

Also- while it's true that learning to drive one of these cars is more important than modding them, you have to remember- most people are driving in much newer cars nowdays- we want the feel of these newer cars- they ride better AND handle better both on track AND street- even the Turbo S does not hold up too well when considering ride quality w/newer cars- a TT Supra would run circles around one ANYWHERE... A turbo S would blow a regular 951 away at the track- read some of the articles from the times- C&D criticized the 968 for being "harsh for no good reason"- the chassis is weak compared to some modern day convertibles- the suspension is not multilink & would never compete w/a good modern set-up on the street- by the time it could outhandle a newer car, it would beat you to death- then, would only skip off the track when hitting bumps & ruts, etc... I'm not knocking the cars, just saying.... when it comes to performance, we are 20yrs gone... Porsch'e engineers were competing w/other engineers from the 70's & 80's- they consistently increased spring rates, shocks, bushing stiffness, sway size, etc, slowly, from year to year...

Anyway, anyone who's ever SEEN a pic of a 951 in a corner, knows how much lean there is- the dif b/t it & an E36 M3 is night & day.... why not get rid of some of the slop? As for upgrading brakes, most people do all kinds of things, like, BR's, etc, & I'd bet they actually HURT performance- of course, that all depends on what you're trying to accomplish- why go to BR's w/track pads for the STREET? You'r stopping distances will INCREASE, not DECREASE. the advantage on a track is consistency & fade reduction... OF course, 100's of people here have G-Techs but no one will do brake tests anyway- just 0-60 & 1/4 mile- I've started SEVERAL threads trying to get people to check.... wish I could get some other people's #'s- would LOVE to see how a few highly modded cars would do...

LAST- the OTHER reason many people are wanting to upgrade their suspension is... their STOCK stuff is SHOT! So, WHY NOT upgrade while replacing? I mean, labor is the same no matter what spring rate or shocks you run.... why go back to stock rates, only to change everything out again in 2yrs? Why not do it right the first time? Oftentimes, when things are worn out, it's the best time to upgrade whether you NEED it or NOT....

BTW- many spring rates have been mentioned here in reference to track & street, etc... It's funny, I've heard people say that their cars ride smoother than stock w/400lb springs, &, other's say they are knocking fillings out w/250's... I'm dying w/my 275's actually, but, again, it depends on the shock valving, etc.... but, just for info... Chris Cervelli had 1600lb springs on his car... he also had the WS 944 lap record- 1:23.x seconds.... stock 951 was >1:45.x, Turbo S was 1:41.0, Supra TT was 1:39.0, RX7TT was 1:40.2, 968 was 1:43.3, 300ZXTT was 1:41.6, 89 911 turbo was 1:43.0, Viper GTSR was 1:36.0, etc.... Most of this taken from C&D '93...

suspension is a black art at best.....

Robby

Hey Joseph- have you done anything to your M3 at all? suspension or engine? I LOVE those cars, as I've told you before. A friend had one w/H&R CO's- about twice stock stiffness- that was BY FAR the best handling street car I've ever driven- it was UNREAL... the best handler for a track car would be an '88 GTi 16v- STIFF as hell RACE Bilsteins & stiff springs.... larger sways, etc.... would beat you a little on the streets though....

Also, you're right about the # not changing much.... my 100lb helpers are now 9lbs stiffer than I thought.... oh well.... it really makes sense.... I had 225's up front & 100lb helpers on back & it oversteered for sure.... Turbo S has 18mm rear sway (89's had 16mm)- Turbo S had 25.5mm t-bars, whereas normal 951's had 23.5mm.... so, add the 56 to 175 & you get 231- the front would be just barely over 200lbs, IF the effective rate loses 10%... So, it appears that I now have 240lb effective rears.... I have 275 fronts now & it feels pretty neutral... 275 - 28 = 247 & the rear would be 240, so..... would make sense... of course.... i'm not so sure the fronts lose a full 10%, but, they might.... I always knew they lost something though....

Robby

BTW- someone here had asked if Sway-A-Way made torsion bars.... they DEFINATELY do.... my 27mm are Sway-A-Way.....

Sean.... if you want to buy my 27's, I'll make you a good deal on them... might match what you're wanting to do a little better, since the 944 is a little lighter (100-150lbs) than the Turbo S, etc.... The 27's are ~220lb effective... 28's are ~254lbs.... IF Joseph's bars are 29mm effective, then, I'd say they'd be too large for you (~290lbs) unless you're reconsidering your whole suspension... they're definately more than I want if that large.... anyway, my 27's are perfect... never been installed.... just sitting here in a closet for a year now.....

Alpine951

I will also confirm that sway awat makes torsion bars. I just popped in a 28mm sway away on the right side on Friday. The left side I did a few weeks ago and it took for ever. It always the way. Just need to tweek the ride heights. i also just did the paragon koni strut conversion with the ride height kit. I have gotten to the point that the lean of my car keeps me from progressing at DE. This is of course with street tires also. I did 300# front springs with 28mm tbars I think. This was based on what I was told by paragon. After doing the research now I wonder if the tbar should have been 29mm as it's effective rate is closer to the springs. I will need to to figure out where to set the konis for street and track. Anyone got any thoughts on the strut and shock settings?

joseph mitro

Robby, i haven't done anything to the M3 yet. it's bone stock. all the expendable income goes toward modifying my 944. the M3 is about 9.5 out of 10 cosmetically and mechanically, so I'm trying to keep it in good shape. maybe when i get tired of tracking the 944, i'll modify the M3.

Matt H

The Koni yellow are a compromise for people who arent willing to spend the money to go to something else. They are too soft or too hard about 99.9% of the time. They will jar your teeth out near full and feel like riding on marshmallows near soft and there is virtually no inbetween.

Using a 250lb front spring with stock rear suspension causes a pretty massive understeer and if you arent seeing it then you arent driving hard enough

Before spending a dime you need to decide the following:
1) how much am I willing to spend?
2) what is my goal? Good street car or good track car (Danno is right, it is near impossible to have both) You will end up with a rough street car or a crap track car.
3) how much am I willing spend?
4) how far will I want to go in the future? I.e. if you know that you really want to go coil over in a year why bother with an expensive setup now?

Answer those questions and people can give you a more accurate answer. Be prepared to not like the answer.
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joseph mitro

i respectfully disagree. reality is that some people are unable (not unwilling) to pay $3000 for a good track setup, and drive the car on the street as well as the track.

i agree that a nice street setup that gives a decent track ride will be a compromise from a full track suspension, but sometimes compromises are necessary. nothing is black and white. the key is "what do you want?" for a track car with 700lb spring rates, i would have to have a trailer and toe vehicle so i could pull the car. that's realistically impossible at this stage of the game, so compromise becomes necessary.

i can still learn how to drive the car, which is really more important than having a full race suspension anyways.

Matt H

It is okay to disagree. I dont take it personally. However, the Koni yellows are marketed very well and they perform as I described. Sadly, they are one of the few options.

You can drive a car with 700 lb springs and a dedicated track car on a relatively flat track will be closer to 1000lb front springs, possible more. There is so much body roll in the 944 chassis it isnt funny.

I agree 100%, however, you can still learn how to drive the car on a new stock setup for 1/2 the cost and when you do step up to the next level of suspension you will be that much faster for it. The last sentence is why I asked him what he plans on doing. That one question is the only way one could tailor a response to his question. Without that answer you (generic, not personal) are just guessing at what will work.
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luckett

I AM definately driving hard enough. Ask me how I know...

It's quite ludricous that you think you can tell me how MY car handles on the track.

Legoland951

I think he was referring to laws of physics (spring rate, etc)....

Matt H

He was indeed, referring to the laws of physics. Sorry, if you cant feel the understeer then you dont have 250lb springs, you have something done to the rear or you drive like a grandma. The front end push is so bad that a 17 yr. old with 1000 miles of driving experience should be able to describe it.
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tifosiman

OK, I have to chime in here.

Have you ever done a track event? I assume you are talking about DE (drivers ed)? Or autocross? Because the two really are different as far as suspension set-ups. I am assuming you are't talking about spec-car door-to-door racing.

The real object of DE is to learn to drive fast properly and improve yourself. Autox is basically the same, although with more classification requirements/rules per mechanical upgrades on your car (and NOT drivers experience like most DE rungroups are set up).

Regardless, if you have never done one (either).............the best advice here is to learn to drive the car in its stock, well-tuned state. It is HIGHLY doubtful that your stock springs are worn out. Just ensure that your struts, bushings, balljoints, tires, brakes, etc are in proper working order. Then go do some events. Don't start screwing with the car's suspension until you get used to it and are as quick as you can be.

You will learn the right way to drive. Then, if you want to go from there, the first big improvement will be tires. Followed by proper sways. After that, the sky is the limit.

Here is the bicycle analogy I use when talking to people about this very subject (autox and DE suspension). I used to help out a lot with teaching sessions for young developing mountain bike racers. We used to train them on hardtails instead of full-suspension rigs. Why? Because with a full-suspension bike, you develop bad habits and roll over/into everything, instead of learning finesse and how to properly navigate over obstacles. The rider that learns on a hardtail is going to be much faster and pick better lines, even when placed on a full suspension rig later.

I hope that makes sense. Good luck.

luckett

You are not considering many other variables that can affect the balance of a car. A blanket statement like that is not well founded.

I know what understeer is having driven front and rear drive on the track and racing karts. This 17x2 yr. old knows understeer...

Matt H

Like all generalizations this is one too. However, I can tell you from PLENTY of time in 944 series cars that a 250 lb spring up front with stock rear suspension on stock wheels with street tires will understeer like mad. I bet I have driven 30+ 944s set up like that and they all understeered heavily. While your setup may work for you (and it apparently does) it is a terrible setup to reccomend and it is probably the first mistake that people make when setting up the suspension on one of these.

I wont argue what does and doesnt work for you, only you know that. I am saying that it is a disservice to recommend that setup on a 924/944/951.
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