Serge944

The standard 225/255 on 17" twists wrapped in dunlop sp8000s. Im pretty sure the alignment was stock. (I know because a friend bought his car...not because Im obsessed )

Mark Lue

Sorry Robby, I don't know the settings they used. The NA cars used basically the Sport suspension from '86 with some modifications to the ride height. The later turbo cars used helper springs in the rear suspensions similar to what is being offered by some of the venders now.

Karl T who used to be on this List back in 2001, raced his NA '86 Rothmans car with great success against newer competition using basically the same setup from '86 and '87. Check out his web site and his comments, in particular the photo of the BACK of the car.

http://www.compass360.com/racing/2003/level0.htm

I hope I'm not pissing in anyone's cornflakes, the basic point I am making is that the 944 has a pretty good suspension that is trackable we just have to maybe do a bit of upgrading and/or maintain what we have... thats your "Trackable 944 suspension on a budget", unless you have highter goals and a bigger wallet.

Legoland951

The car has some modifications to the ride height (coilovers with heavier spring) with sport suspension (konis adjustables), sway bars (I believe 30mm 968 m030) etc. Those ARE the type of modifications we are talking about and not "stock" with the Sachs shocks/struts, springs, and sway bars.

Danno

"Mark- what would you do to help the car rotate while still keeping the rear tires from slipping first? "

I think you're referring to the transition between straight-ahead driving and steady-state max-G cornering? The transition is really, really hard to quantify because it has very subjective "feel" to it. Here's some settings that may aid in getting you the "effect" you want:

1. low-height stiff sidewall tyres, like 40 or 35-series

2. wide-rims, use maximum-width end of the range for tyre-size you're using, I literally FLEW off the inside of turn-1 at Laguna when I switched to my HRE 16x10" wheels from the stock 16x7/8" Fuchs between morning and afternoon sessions, with the SAME crappy SP8000 tyres; the turn-in improved that much!

3. higher low-velocity compression-damping on the front dampers

4. quicker-ratio steering R&P (anyone have a part# on this?)

5 alignment makes a huge difference in the transitional feel. For maximum turn-in response, like for tight autocrosses, you would typically want:

F: -4.5 to -5.5 camber, 2.0-2.5 caster, 1/32-1/16th toe-in
R: -3.5 to -4.5 camber, 0 to 1/16th toe-out

whereas for a road-race course, you may want:

F: -3.5 to -4.5 camber, 3.25-3.75 caster, 0-1/16th toe-in
R: -2.5 to -3.5 camber, 0 to 1/16th toe-in

Just try these two alignment settings on a course that you know really well, you'll be amazed at the difference between the two of them vs. what you have now.

M758

Well the 17's will make the ride more harsh. Well netural balance is always tough to achieve and it all depends on aligment and how you drive the car.

Given the 17" wheels, I'd first fool with dampers to try to take the edge off. These are "free" and easier than changing springs. If that does not work then go 50 lbs softer front and rear if you like the balance you currently have. (by 50 lbs I mean softer by little and keep same percent front and rear).

M758

Well start with and LSD to limit wheel spin and then adjust alignment settings to get the turn in you need.

If you can't spend the money on an LSD or already a have one. Then... F... First gear. Simply don't apply so much power. Really I mean it. First gear is short and it is easy to overpower the tires. If you work really hard to get great mechanical grip in first then i'd sure as bet the car will have lots of understeer every where else.

So better to limit wheel spin in first by throttle application and getting the car to turn in better at speed. Who uses first any way? I never do it on a track. In autocross first gear in my Turbo S is an almost waste as there is too much power to control and I am sliding around all over the place.


At PIR for example I need to set-up my car as compomise between front and rear grip. Without an LSD I get all kinds of rear wheel spin exiting turn 7 in 3rd gear. (134 rwhp NA) Well I can dail that out with sway bar settings, but that add understeer. So I have understeer in other corners and that actually slows me down more. My best lap time require me to modulate the throttle to minimize wheelspin in 7, but the car has no understeer in the flat out corners 3-5 and less understeer in flat out oval corner.

luckett

After doing a little thinking about F/R spring rates and the fundamental question that most people are really asking, I came up with a little formula that might make the answer a little more transparent. I hope someone out there finds it useful.

The fundamental question: If I buy an x diam. torsion bar, what spring rate should I use for the front *IF* I want to maintain the same balance that I have now with the stock setup?

af=(0.82*er)/zf

where

er=zr*ar= rear effective rate
zr=multiplier to get rear effective rate (0.56 or 0.65 depending on who you believe)
zf=multiplier to get front effective rate (general consensus seems to be 0.9)
ar=rear actual torsion bar rate
af=front actual spring rate

(Assumes the target balance is that of a stock 944S2/951/968.)

GlenL

If you want a streetable car, doesn't it make sense to go with mild springs (200-250) and stiff sway bars? This gives good turning behavior while keeping the ride tolerable.

Legoland951

I had 250 progressives, koni yellow sports with turbo sways, and 31 hollow torsion bars (though a little big for 250 front, it was a precursor to bigger front springs). The ride was good enough for everyday driving but it all depends on what you consider acceptable. If you are used to a lexus, then you won't like it. If you are used to a bike shown to the picture on the left of this post, the 944 setup feels like a lexus.

Dave in Chicago

Well, I can now say that you can crank the spring rate on these cars WAY UP and still drive them comfortably on the street. New suspension for club racing is installed. No rubber, no floppy-car ride, no real padding in racing seat... No issue on the street so far. Heck, I might still drive this car through winters (snow tires, of course)!

It's all about the shocks. Don't valve them through the roof and life is good!

luckett

What rates are you running?

Dave in Chicago

Chris - Sworn to secrecy, but suffice to say they are way past the 400 lb range folks consider to be boarderline for street. More and more, I am convinced it's all about shock valving. I have been in cars with much more modest spring rates and thought my teeth would rattle out of my head... just no compliance whatsoever. It's all about the shocks.

joseph mitro

i agree. i have 350lb in front, and when i set the shocks to full stiffn the ride is harsh, but setting it to 1/3 stiff or even soft makes the ride much more bearable.

M758

I would agree based on the information I have heard.
Of course the trick is getting proper dampers and having them set properly. This is no easy task.

Robby

YES- valving is CRITICAL!!! Funny though, my valving seems to be too SOFT for my 275's & it is a little rough... You have rebound & compression & one can be just right, while the other is off, &, the ride can be very non-compliant.... I'm going to have my Koni's rebuilt & made DBL adj (Paragon) & start playing w/the adjustments when I get them on- I just picked them up from storage & am cleaning them up- hopefully by mid-summer I'll have it all done... I'm sticking w/275's & am going to 28mm t-bars... I think that will be fine for street- I currently have 100lb helpers on Turbo S 25.5 t-bars, & the rear feels great, so, the 28's shouldn't be much different- IF the fronts end up feeling too stiff (despite tuning), I can always go back to 250's later- then, if the rear oversteers a touch (shouldn't really) I can adjust w/sways- planning on 968 M030's anyway....

Dave- you said "no rubber"- does this mean you went all the way through the car w/spherical bearings & removed ALL of the rubber bushings? If so, this does surprise me that it's still compliant- what type of shocks did you use- can you at least share the brand?


thanks