Robby

Chris- is your 968 M030? IF so, then, you also have helper springs. ALSO, the 944S2, 951, & 968 (non-M030) all had 25.5mm T-bars- effective rate is ~175lbs, whereas NA T-bar's are 23.5mm w/an effective rate of ~125lbs- 250's on an NA would make the rear DOUBLE the rate of the front.... It obviously will vary from car to car, but, w/my Turbo S, even the 225lb front springs I first went too, would have screwed up my handling, but, my 17yr old t-bars were really shot IMO- the car really squatted much harder than I think it should have... Of course, I have heard of people going up to 250's in 951's w/out changing t-bars & saying it felt ok, although even that is still a big dif.... The most I heard was of a guy in FL who went to 300's w/stock t-bars. He said his car felt great- that REALLY amazed me- he had gone to stiffer shocks all around & said that they helped stiffen the rear some, but, shocks do NOT support the weight AND they need to be valved for the spring rates, so, I almost wonder if one of the PO's had already done some mods to this guys car long before he bought it.... who knows....?

GlenL

All that said...

The best way to achieve a handling improvement without sacrificing streetability is to go with bigger sway bars. Does yours have a rear bar? Mine doesn't. Really noticable how the back flys around when doing some slalom maneuvers.

It's the stiff springs that make road bumps noticible. Stiff shocks give that too. Since you need stiff shocks to control stiff springs, the result is a really rough street ride.

joseph mitro

this topic has been discussed extensively. i'm waiting for Geo or Vaughan Scott to chime in here. Both of them have much more experience than most who have posted so far. based on their posts, i realize i have MUCH to learn about suspension setups.
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/191359-924s-suspension-help.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/191497-koni-stiffness-setting-for-350-lb-springs.html

i'm going to throw in my $0.02 of (limited) experience. springs stiffer than 250 lb are not too much for the street. i have 350 on my car and drive it on the street all the time. it's the shocks that make the car undriveable if they are set too stiff. also, you should not use shocks to balance out stiffer springs. they accomplish two totally separate tasks when it comes to handling dynamics.

i am not qualified enough to really answer your questions, as i have learned. most of the street drivers on this forum are not either. URIN2ND - for the cost you are looking at, i think dave swanson has a reasonable approach. start with sway bars, add good shocks, then springs. also, consider......are you installing yourself? if not, add another $800-1000 for installation of all the parts you want, especially torsion bars.

Techno Duck

Good topic...i plan on upgrading my suspension starting at the end of this autocross season. I figure i learn to drive before i start messing around with things. One thing i know i want to work on however is the amount of body roll i feel during the turns. Currently my car is all stock except for '86 944 Turbo sways, 24mm front and 18mm rear.

My original plan was going to be the koni strut conversion in the front and likely Bilstien HD's in the rear. I would really rather not mess around with the torsion bars. Would that be a good setup, or would it be better to go with Koni's all around? Is it possible to get the Paragon conversion with the Bilstien struts instead? What would be a good front spring rate for me? Rear coil overs are really much to expensive for me and it seems overkill for someone who only autocrosses.

My car will be a daily driver + autocross car. Im still a young kid, so i really do not mind a firmer ride (just as long as it dosent feel like im off roading going down the block).

Der Rennwagen

Opinions from a New Englander in rough rallye style conditions...

I would imagine that the road conditions (ie most daily driven) on the street should dictate how to tune the suspension for both conditions - on track and off. Say, 80% will be street driving and 20% will be track then I'd set up for daily driving comfort.

The roads I have to travel over (for better words...) are nasty. Four months out of the year they have snow (or ice) on them. I've got 195/65-15s mounted up for eight months. In Feb., (and now March) the frost heaves, cracks, uneven surfaces, loose gravel, sand and dust make most of my driving time a real rallye challenge. The ground is still totally frozen up here !!!! About four months out of the year, when the frost heaves settle, and everything kinda thaws out (summer), I can run my 225/50-15 S-03s on the Fuchs for daily driving and or leave on for track events.

I've thought about what upgrade I'd like to do on my Porsche to make it work better on my roads AND work well, ala Club Sport like, out on the track. I've got the option M404 on my early '85 and stock Boge shocks w/118k miles. The rear torsion bars *feel* a little squishy through some of the rougher sections but I couldn't imagine having any stiffer springs or stiffer rear torsions. Sursprisingly, the stock Boge shock compression and rebound is good (given the conditions I've got and mileage) and when running hard through this stuff, I still feel very much in control, yes even with measly 195/65-15 snows and the stock sways (23.5mm front / 18mm rear). The S-03s help considerably in the summer but tramline over the bumps.

On my ex-87 944 I didn't have the rear sway bar, had stock Boges and I can say that the 18mm rear bar alone makes a world of difference in how a 944 handles.

Shocks
I have mucho experience with Bilstein HDs in two of my ex-Audi ur-quattros on the same roads and have them in my Taco4WD V6 now. My impression, the initial compression dampning is too stiff and you can't adjust them. I have Koni Sport adjustables in both of my Audi //S4 and //S6. These are more well behaved over the rougher roads, with stock springs and you can adjust dampning. I really like the Koni Sports.

Springs
I've had H&R springs on my '95 //S6 but just swapped back to original springs / Koni Sports due to hitting frost heaves underneath and scraping all over the place. The 1.5" they lowered the car made the rotational *feel* of it cornering and handling way better. But, the roads you travel on dictating how to set it up correctly was the big factor - just too low.

Audi quattro experience aside...

- Boges are really surprisingly good in any condition
- Bilstein HDs are tighter but are *harsh* on rough roads, limited by lack of adjustment
- Koni Sports are awesome with stock springs on rough roads and I could only imagine that they would really shine with proper coil overs and corner balancing for the track.

I'm planning on going with Koni Sports and leave my stock springs and torsion bars. I might upgrade to larger sway bars and lower the rear end to get the rotational *feel* better. There is enough clearance in the rear to do this.

Dial a little bit in at a time... and practice driving. You guys are lucky with smooth roads

L8 APEKS

The Bilstein HD is NOT a performance shock, and they don't make a Sport for our cars. HD's are simply "Heavy Duty" OE-replacement shocks, and are NOT valved much stiffer! Certainly not stiff enough to match a change from 140 to 250+ springs.

Konis really are the only option if you want a shock built to handle significantly increased spring rates.

Also...did you mean *TORSION* bars, not sway bars? Sway-A-Way doesn't make swaybars! Anyway, I couldn't find the link to these on sale either!

However, Pelican has hollow torsion bars on their website. And IIRC, the Weltmeister SWAYbars are hollow, aren't they? I'm pretty sure they are but not positive.

josephsc

I have a pair of unused hollow Sway-Aways sitting in my closet (an opportunistic eBay purchase awhile back). I *think* they are 27mm effective (about 30mm outside diameter). I'll have to check when I get home later this week.

Send me PM if you have any interest -- I'm never going to have time to tackle a t-bar replacement job.

L8 APEKS

Joe...you have a PM buddy.

josephsc

Got your PM -- I'll check on it once I'm back in town.

BTW, this is a good read by Marc Bélanger: How to make 944 stick

Dave in Chicago

I will take a step back here and state the obvious...

For a street-driven Porsche, you really don't HAVE to "upgrade" the suspension at all. I drove my 944 bone stock and on street tires at about 15-20 track days per year for some years and got great results from it. If it's all operating as Porsche intended, in good condition, and has a high-quality alignment done... You get the experience that Dr. Porsche intended, be it street or track.

I only did the Koni yellows when the front right strut had really given up. I'm only doing the full race suspension now because A) car has original struts/shocks at 136k miles, and B) it's going to become a nearly dedicated race car (cage, seat, etc.).

The factory M030 is, in my opinion, what the Porsche factory considers to be a good street set-up for the enthusiast. Stock is designed for the Porsche experience, but throttled back for more "pedestrian" use. Not quite as crisp, but still fully Porsche in every sense of the word.

Also keep in mind that the further one drifts away from the factory set-up, two things POTENTIALLY happen:

1) One can increase specific-condition grip beyond stock (good for racing)
2) One will increase the likelyhood of the car to be quite "peaky" and much less forgiving. Picture a slope that comes down gently from peak grip (factory) to one that falls off the table just past peak grip (modified or race car)

The second car can become MUCH less fun to drive in anything other than dry, smooth, track conditions.

Just my 2 cents. Hope it is useful.

Jason_86_951

The 84' I'm parting had a great budget auto-x suspension on it.
26mm front sway
14mm rear sway
stock torsion bars
Koni adjustables set on 1 turn from full stiff
stock but new front struts springs.
I drove it a couple of times before he wrecked it and it stuck really good, with minimal body roll.
It was setup up by Fordahl in Seattle to be competitive in stock autocross classes, and it was.

And a selfish plug, it's all for sale.
Cheers,
Jason

Serge944

My concern with stiff springs on the street is not the harshness of the ride. Tifo has 450# springs and says the ride is still bearable. However, try taking your car to the limit on a less than perfect road, and you won't be very happy with the result.

Maybe you guys don't push your cars daily driving, but when I need to catch a yellow on a left turn - the street is my race track.

They used to make their hollow "pro" swaybars, which are nearly identical in construction and price to Tarett and Kokeln swaybars. They now only make solid rolled steel swaybars, which have given its nickname "Weightmeister." Very heavy.

L8 APEKS

Well, I'm near Vision Motorsports, they carry the Kokeln stuff. I'll see what they want for sways.

I'm kind of surprised that people are almost willing to keep tired OE shocks and just get larger swaybars. That might be an OK approach for a smooth race track where shock absorbers aren't taxed as heavily as on the street, but a daily driven car will benefit more from doing the shocks/springs first and the swaybars second IMHO. The shocks are what keep the tires on the ground when the road gets bumpy, and that's more important than a little less roll in most street situations. The swaybars may give the illusion of a better handling car by decreasing body roll in deep turns, but they won't keep the tires from skipping off the road if the road gets rough!

I'll certainly do both, but I think the shocks/springs should be the first step toward making a better handling AND a safer car in terms of being able to hold the road, given the fact it's still a daily driver. Not to mention, you'll feel the benfits of shocks/springs in ALL situations...in a straight line, off the line accelerating, etc...not just in the turns.

joseph mitro

no doubt about that. i live in a small town with some nice country roads nearby. unfortunately, some of the roads are terribly bumpy, and the car becomes unsettled with the stiffer suspension. still, for most street driving the car is not too bumpy. and softening the shocks does help even on bumpy roads.

until my car is full race (it may never be), my car will be a compromise for street and track, leaning towards more track use.

another thing i think a lot of people (including myself) have failed to realize is how important a good alignment is. if you have some front toe out and negative camber with proper tire pressures, the car will really stick well. of course, this is again a compromise from street driving.

Eyal 951

I'd like to hear this groups opinoion on my planed setup for probably this summer. I'm going to go with the escort cup setup, with the stiffer valving. I'm thihnking about 450 front 550 rear spring rate. For sway bars, I'll go with 968 MO3O front and rear. I'll also eventuall do little things like bushings and whatnot. I do a lot of HPDE, and the car is not a daily driver. I no longer push the car on the street, so I'm not looking for performance on street, aside from some fun WOT pulls. (Can't give it all up!) I have a very high tolerance for unbearable rides. My friend daily drives his integra GS-R on koni yellows, and 400 front, 450 rear spring, shock set on full stiff all round. I find the ride perfectly acceptable. The fact that his car is about 500 pounds lighter then mine, should make my planned setup, not too much stiffer on the street then his.
Serge, I welcome your opinion too. (yes, thats an apology)
~Eyal