Trackable 944 supension on a budget???
03-28-2005, 04:38 PM
#76
Burning Brakes
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Some great information here and on the threads referred to. Congrats on your great results Joseph M.
I am upgrading my struts because they don't pass the bounce it up and down and see if it stops test. Also, under acceleration and braking my nose is lifting and diving too much. I have Bilstein yellows in the back and I wanted to go with Bilstein struts in the front but I am doing the Koni conversion and so the Bilsteins won't work in front.
I initially wanted 250# springs on the struts but when I asked Skip at Paragon he suggested 200# becuase I do not have coil overs in the back at this point. He mentioned the understeer as well. So I figure this is a good starting point for learning and then modifying as I learn more about what I need. I am also getting the 968 caster blocks. I have 26.8mm/18mm Turbo sway bars at this point. I will look at bushings later.
This post is directed to Urin 2nd as representative of what another begining autocross/DE driver is doing.
I am upgrading my struts because they don't pass the bounce it up and down and see if it stops test. Also, under acceleration and braking my nose is lifting and diving too much. I have Bilstein yellows in the back and I wanted to go with Bilstein struts in the front but I am doing the Koni conversion and so the Bilsteins won't work in front.
I initially wanted 250# springs on the struts but when I asked Skip at Paragon he suggested 200# becuase I do not have coil overs in the back at this point. He mentioned the understeer as well. So I figure this is a good starting point for learning and then modifying as I learn more about what I need. I am also getting the 968 caster blocks. I have 26.8mm/18mm Turbo sway bars at this point. I will look at bushings later.
This post is directed to Urin 2nd as representative of what another begining autocross/DE driver is doing.
03-29-2005, 09:53 AM
#77
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Alpine-
Chris Cervelli had recommended I go to 250 - 275lb springs w/29mm or 30mm T-bars, so, you can see there is a large range of opinions here- of course, HE could handle oversteer better than most, so.... In any event, I would think you'd want 29mm t-bars w/300's- 28mm w/250's, etc... I have 275's w/25.5mm t-bars & 100lb helpers. it really doesn't understeer like I would think, but, I think something's wrong anyway, so.... As for 300's w/28's- it might be a hair less rear (or too much front depending on how you look at it) but it really depends on the feel & I honestly think you could get by w/it.... it's not THAT far off..... PLUS, IF the front loses an honest 10%, then, it's probably closer than 29's would be to 300's.... you'd be comparing 254lbs to 270lbs....? Based on what I've been through, I'm really wanting to stay w/275's & am not sure about going above 28's- also not sure 28's wouldn't oversteer IF I chose to go w/250s up front. I would love to know more about shock/strut valving... bilsteins list their's, but, I'm told that dif shocks manufacturers use dif scale #'s, so....?
Matt- any suggestions for street shocks? would an open budgest make any dif? Would Ohlin's, Protrac, Motons, JRZ's, Penskes, etc, make any dif? Would they help ride quality any while still helping handling? I was planning on having my Koni's made DBL adj & then buying Cup rears (changing T-bars, so, no rear springs)- since both would be DBL adj, I was hoping I could get a pretty good ride while still helping performance. My Tokicos on my 89 Integra were incredible btw... Also, I agree that these cars have a TON of body roll- at least compared to modern cars- a good modern convertible is a stiffer chassis... THIS is why I don't want to go back on spring rates- I honestly want less roll than I have now w/275s- I DO plan to get 968 M030 sways, which, should help a little, but, still.... springs seem to be the basis... there are several things I've found recently, that are supposed to help too- the front sway helper that Lindsey & others are selling- also the BK front sway brace- wondering how much these things really help- also planning to eventually do a strut brace- this will be last- Cervelli & several other racers claim they don't help at all- of course, w/1600lb springs, I'm wondering if that may be WHY he never noticed....? ONE other thing no one here's mentioned- IF you box your suspension in TOO tightly, you will fight the independent aspect of it....
Chris Cervelli had recommended I go to 250 - 275lb springs w/29mm or 30mm T-bars, so, you can see there is a large range of opinions here- of course, HE could handle oversteer better than most, so.... In any event, I would think you'd want 29mm t-bars w/300's- 28mm w/250's, etc... I have 275's w/25.5mm t-bars & 100lb helpers. it really doesn't understeer like I would think, but, I think something's wrong anyway, so.... As for 300's w/28's- it might be a hair less rear (or too much front depending on how you look at it) but it really depends on the feel & I honestly think you could get by w/it.... it's not THAT far off..... PLUS, IF the front loses an honest 10%, then, it's probably closer than 29's would be to 300's.... you'd be comparing 254lbs to 270lbs....? Based on what I've been through, I'm really wanting to stay w/275's & am not sure about going above 28's- also not sure 28's wouldn't oversteer IF I chose to go w/250s up front. I would love to know more about shock/strut valving... bilsteins list their's, but, I'm told that dif shocks manufacturers use dif scale #'s, so....?
Matt- any suggestions for street shocks? would an open budgest make any dif? Would Ohlin's, Protrac, Motons, JRZ's, Penskes, etc, make any dif? Would they help ride quality any while still helping handling? I was planning on having my Koni's made DBL adj & then buying Cup rears (changing T-bars, so, no rear springs)- since both would be DBL adj, I was hoping I could get a pretty good ride while still helping performance. My Tokicos on my 89 Integra were incredible btw... Also, I agree that these cars have a TON of body roll- at least compared to modern cars- a good modern convertible is a stiffer chassis... THIS is why I don't want to go back on spring rates- I honestly want less roll than I have now w/275s- I DO plan to get 968 M030 sways, which, should help a little, but, still.... springs seem to be the basis... there are several things I've found recently, that are supposed to help too- the front sway helper that Lindsey & others are selling- also the BK front sway brace- wondering how much these things really help- also planning to eventually do a strut brace- this will be last- Cervelli & several other racers claim they don't help at all- of course, w/1600lb springs, I'm wondering if that may be WHY he never noticed....? ONE other thing no one here's mentioned- IF you box your suspension in TOO tightly, you will fight the independent aspect of it....
03-29-2005, 11:32 AM
#78
Drifting
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Hi Matt,
I'm running Ledas coilovers with 300 fronts & 400 rears
with stock F & R sway bars. The car handles well but I
feel that it's a little to harsh for street as we have plenty
of poor condition roads here. I was thinking of switching
to 220-250 F & 350 R. what do you think ?
I'm running Ledas coilovers with 300 fronts & 400 rears
with stock F & R sway bars. The car handles well but I
feel that it's a little to harsh for street as we have plenty
of poor condition roads here. I was thinking of switching
to 220-250 F & 350 R. what do you think ?
03-29-2005, 11:33 AM
#79
Drifting
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Hi Matt,
I'm running Ledas coilovers with 300 fronts & 400 rears
with stock F & R sway bars. The car handles well but I
feel that it's a little too harsh for street as we have plenty
of poor condition roads here. I was thinking of switching
to 220-250 F & 350 R. what do you think ?
I'm running Ledas coilovers with 300 fronts & 400 rears
with stock F & R sway bars. The car handles well but I
feel that it's a little too harsh for street as we have plenty
of poor condition roads here. I was thinking of switching
to 220-250 F & 350 R. what do you think ?
03-29-2005, 12:17 PM
#80
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Two questions....
1- J Chen & EVERYONE- is Rennlist having some probs today? I noticed your DBL post here & that's been happening to me- slow loading, bordering on forever (& I'm on broadband) etc.... is it just me....?
2- J chen- which Ledas do you have? The non-adj oil or the non-adj gas? Karl sold me the non-adj oil- would not have bought them had I known & am very upset about it as I'm having all kinds of ride probs- this experience leads me to believe that the bottom of the barrel Ledas are not very good & are not very consistent either- eclou has them & says his car feels great- he actually says it ride better than his M3 w/H&R CO's, but, that means that either his M3's rates are high as hell (he doesn't know what they are) OR his M3 is having some serious probs b/c there is no comparison b/t what an E36 M3 suspension is capable of (ride quality combined w/handling) & a 951's- the M3 is far superior.... Last question- IF yours are oil shocks (make sure btw b/c I've had many people be EXTREMELY surprised to find that there's were indeed oil)- then, how does your suspension differ when cold/hot? This, I feel, is one big prob w/oil shocks & I can't get over the fuct that I was sold them to begin with when I was as clear as I was about what I wanted... Anyway, mine feels much better when cold- the shocks are stiffer then & it seems that they are possibly misvalved- my car HAD 225's up front w/100lb helpers on rear 25.5mm t-bars (I assume you are running 23.5's or deleted them altogether?)- anyway, my point....? I personally do not think that 300's would be too stiff AT ALL for these cars (they were really undersprung) IF the valving is right & the bushings are good (NOT spherical, etc)- I think bushings should just be replaced w/Turbo S bushings & be done w/it (some of the Turbo S bushings are supposed to be stiffer than non-S....). BTW- does your car skip at all over ruts, etc, in corners? LAst- do the delrin sway bushings make any squeeking noises???
1- J Chen & EVERYONE- is Rennlist having some probs today? I noticed your DBL post here & that's been happening to me- slow loading, bordering on forever (& I'm on broadband) etc.... is it just me....?
2- J chen- which Ledas do you have? The non-adj oil or the non-adj gas? Karl sold me the non-adj oil- would not have bought them had I known & am very upset about it as I'm having all kinds of ride probs- this experience leads me to believe that the bottom of the barrel Ledas are not very good & are not very consistent either- eclou has them & says his car feels great- he actually says it ride better than his M3 w/H&R CO's, but, that means that either his M3's rates are high as hell (he doesn't know what they are) OR his M3 is having some serious probs b/c there is no comparison b/t what an E36 M3 suspension is capable of (ride quality combined w/handling) & a 951's- the M3 is far superior.... Last question- IF yours are oil shocks (make sure btw b/c I've had many people be EXTREMELY surprised to find that there's were indeed oil)- then, how does your suspension differ when cold/hot? This, I feel, is one big prob w/oil shocks & I can't get over the fuct that I was sold them to begin with when I was as clear as I was about what I wanted... Anyway, mine feels much better when cold- the shocks are stiffer then & it seems that they are possibly misvalved- my car HAD 225's up front w/100lb helpers on rear 25.5mm t-bars (I assume you are running 23.5's or deleted them altogether?)- anyway, my point....? I personally do not think that 300's would be too stiff AT ALL for these cars (they were really undersprung) IF the valving is right & the bushings are good (NOT spherical, etc)- I think bushings should just be replaced w/Turbo S bushings & be done w/it (some of the Turbo S bushings are supposed to be stiffer than non-S....). BTW- does your car skip at all over ruts, etc, in corners? LAst- do the delrin sway bushings make any squeeking noises???
03-29-2005, 07:44 PM
#81
Drifting
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Hi Robby,
My Ledas are adjustable. The ride is pretty good. In the US road
conditions are much better overall so 300 F would be o.k. I'm
running without torsion at the rears. Spring plate bushings, yes
it squeaks. Gonna remove it soon to add some grease & see how
it goes. Personally, I prefer oil to gas shocks. They last longer &
are more reliable.
My Ledas are adjustable. The ride is pretty good. In the US road
conditions are much better overall so 300 F would be o.k. I'm
running without torsion at the rears. Spring plate bushings, yes
it squeaks. Gonna remove it soon to add some grease & see how
it goes. Personally, I prefer oil to gas shocks. They last longer &
are more reliable.
03-30-2005, 01:44 AM
#82
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J Chen- sorry- got you mixed up w/Delrin bushing from another thread, but, everything else was right... I never heard that about oil vs gas- never thought about it really... I had always assumed gas was better b/c it kept the oil from foaming/cavitating, etc... Something Ledas were known for, at least at one time- not sure about now... still wondering if Protrac, Ohilns, JRZ, Penske, Moton, etc would be better for street w/their adjustability, etc.... Are you running RE solid spring plate bushings?
03-30-2005, 02:10 AM
#83
Drifting
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Hi Robby,
Yes I'm running outer Derlin spring plate bushings.
I really don't think that it's worth while to spend
that much cash on street shocks. I got mine direct
from Leda & the price was very good. I would
recommend that you get the Leda adjustables like
mine. Compared to other shocks that I've seen, they
are quite beefy in construction.
Yes I'm running outer Derlin spring plate bushings.
I really don't think that it's worth while to spend
that much cash on street shocks. I got mine direct
from Leda & the price was very good. I would
recommend that you get the Leda adjustables like
mine. Compared to other shocks that I've seen, they
are quite beefy in construction.
03-30-2005, 02:21 AM
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Yeah, that's what I'm thinking... of course, after my Ledas, I'll never use Ledas again, no matter what.... I'm going to Koni DBL adj- for $325/pr, there's no way to beat that- the rears are pricey- the Cups being $699 (w/out springs) but that's still a hair over $1000 for the whole car- only Bilstein Firehawks compare for the $ IMO- I'm just not sure they wouldn't beat me up more- I like aving DBL adj shocks all around, just in case.... who knows...? Hell, I paid $1100 for my POS Ledas.... I'm NOT happy....
So, which ones do you have? oil or gas? Also, single or DBL adj? I am really beginning to believe DBL adj would be a great benefit in ride quality based on several conversations I've had about my Leda probs..... Of course, it really depends- I had Tokico 5-point adj gas shocks (single adj) on my 89 Integra & they were incredible- I swear I would consider them for my Porsche if they made some for it, as silly as that may sound.... that car would run circles around my 951 & it was as simple as buying shocks & springs & throwing them on.... it's just not fair....
I've been asking about Ohlins lately b/c they have a COOL new shock out- it's tiny compared to most others w/large pistons- they weigh in grams too, like 700 or so.... I THINK they are twin tube though, but, still.... they LOOK cool as fu**.... just wonder if they would actually be any better (or any other high-$ shocks) if $ were no object... seems like street shocks (or Rally) would be a LOT more difficult to design as track shocks do not have to encounter such inconsistencies nor consider ride quality, but, I keep hearing different......
So, which ones do you have? oil or gas? Also, single or DBL adj? I am really beginning to believe DBL adj would be a great benefit in ride quality based on several conversations I've had about my Leda probs..... Of course, it really depends- I had Tokico 5-point adj gas shocks (single adj) on my 89 Integra & they were incredible- I swear I would consider them for my Porsche if they made some for it, as silly as that may sound.... that car would run circles around my 951 & it was as simple as buying shocks & springs & throwing them on.... it's just not fair....
I've been asking about Ohlins lately b/c they have a COOL new shock out- it's tiny compared to most others w/large pistons- they weigh in grams too, like 700 or so.... I THINK they are twin tube though, but, still.... they LOOK cool as fu**.... just wonder if they would actually be any better (or any other high-$ shocks) if $ were no object... seems like street shocks (or Rally) would be a LOT more difficult to design as track shocks do not have to encounter such inconsistencies nor consider ride quality, but, I keep hearing different......
03-30-2005, 02:48 AM
#85
Three Wheelin'
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Have you ever done a track event?
I know I'll end up with Koni's, and 27 or 28mm torsions. I guess the front springs would then be 250/275 ish. Sways will come second. Can't afford everything at once!
03-30-2005, 03:35 AM
#86
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That's what I was saying- these cars are old- if it's time to change worn-out susp, then, why not upgrade at same time...? Anyway, I'll make you a good deal on the 27mm unused T-bars I have- they are brand new w/stickers still on them, as well as the spline caps, etc... they are perfect- paid $250 + S&H- would sell for under $200- IF I got the hollows from Joe, I'd sell you these for $190 including S&H maybe...? think about it, but, from what you're saying before, a 27mm sounds like a better fit- 27's = ~225lbs & 28's = ~254lbs.... Also, the fronts DO lose a little- maybe as much as 10%, so, if that's the case, you'd want 27's w/250's, although most people say to use 27's w/250's- all I know is MY car oversteered w/225's & 100lb helpers on 25.5 t-bars- that means my rear was set at ~230lbs, which is slightly stiffer than 27's- the 275's I have up front now, are perfect w/my 100lb helpers.... IF I go w/28's I wont go below 275's up front. ALSO, I have a Turbo S- it's not more than ~150lbs heavier than an NA, but, it's still something... you can do the math per corner, etc... but, if you're planning to strip a little weight, etc, then, I'm not sure how stiff you should go- I've always thought an NA w/adj shocks & 968M030 sways would be nice- maaybe 200-250lb range w/27's would sound perfect- the only reason I want 28's now, instead of the 27's is b/c mine IS heavier & I'm planning to keep the 275's up front, BUT, if I can't get good shocks valved for those rates, then it will continue to beat me to death.... Ill sell ya some Ledas valved whatever you want for ~$600 (all 4) & would sell some 25.5mm Turbo S t-bars for REALLY cheap.... how about some Turbo S sways (26.8/18) for a good price??? all of these things allowing me to go up slightly on my rates.... & everyone's happy.... 
03-30-2005, 03:40 AM
#87
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BTW- what Koni's are you looking at? Can you still get the 968 M030 front Koni's? Can THEY be made DBL adj like Turbo S ones? I'm starting to feel pretty lucky to have the Turbo S koni's now.... of course, I STILL have to spend close to $700 for DBL adj koni rears, but... one can always pay $1200 for the Koni DBL adj mono-tubes- out of my league... I just don't know what else is out there for the front DBL adj... if non-adj, I would go w/Bilstein Firehawks, but, that's just me... I just really wish there were a few more 944's around here to drive & check out....
03-30-2005, 09:33 AM
#88
Race Car
robby, why not get the bilstein escort cup setup? looks pretty cool.
03-31-2005, 12:35 AM
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Actually, I wouldn't mind non-adj for Bilsteins so much, but, they are much stiffer vlaving- the Escorts look awesome, but, they are valved for more in the 450lb spring rate range, whereas Firehawks are more for 275-300lb range... The valving #'s are listed on most sites:
Firehawks- $1115.40 total
AK-1110-A- (380/150) - $356.85
AK-1111-A- (380/150) - $356.85
AK-35432- (400/200) - $200.85
__________________________________________________
Escorts- $1310.40
AK-1120- (600/180) - $415.35
AK-1121- (600/180) - $415.35
AK-37354- (565/218) - $239.85
I can't remember exactly where I got these prices from, but, the valving #'s are always listed the same, &, when I talked w/several Bilstein guys, they let me know the general ranges of spring rates that those #'s needed to run....
Firehawks- $1115.40 total
AK-1110-A- (380/150) - $356.85
AK-1111-A- (380/150) - $356.85
AK-35432- (400/200) - $200.85
__________________________________________________
Escorts- $1310.40
AK-1120- (600/180) - $415.35
AK-1121- (600/180) - $415.35
AK-37354- (565/218) - $239.85
I can't remember exactly where I got these prices from, but, the valving #'s are always listed the same, &, when I talked w/several Bilstein guys, they let me know the general ranges of spring rates that those #'s needed to run....