944J

used turbo block - $1500
kenne bell SC 24psi - $8k
misc - $1k
---
$10k

ls1 ?

DVC

I agree 944J, a KB would be nice! But it's very easy to get over 300rwhp with an LS-1 and not be stressed, or require numerous hours of tunning like a blown mill $$$$$. Then there's also that V8 torque.

Matt H

I know, I have seen it too. I was waiting for one of the tuners to say it. SCing a 944 is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard of. A 951 costs very little and makes more HP than an SC setup ever will. 500 bucks and you can make 265RWHP on a stock turbo with stock injectors.

Boost is limited to pulley size.

You will NEVER get an SC running 24 psi cheaply on a 944 block, you would be lucky to run 8-10psi with an intercooler. If you went to the trouble to swap a turbo block in (which you wouldnt need to do, if you want to lower compression just swap pistons, blocks are the same) why waste 6K on an SC setup when you could make as much HP for 1/10th the cost.

The reason the kits arent popular is that 4K into a 3K dollar car is idiotic. If you have an excellent example 944 sell it spend the 4K plus what you get for it and buy a very nice turbo. A set of chips later and you are making more HP and TQ than your SC ever would have (within reason). Want to go faster, bolt on more parts. Want a better power curve than a stock 951 (which makes more HP and TQ than a stock NA at EVERY RPM) grab a Vitesse kit, quicker spool up and much more power.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

944J

I've never worked with turbos or SC's but I was just reading about Kenne Bell's "Blowzilla" SC that puts out 20-24psi for not that much.

People are looking into this because they want their car to go fast. If they have a 944na that is faster than your 944 Turbo, then which one is worth more money? You can get all the upgraded brakes and trans and stuff used for cheap.

You can switch pulley's on your SC for more boost easily. KB sells a 24psi twin screw SC for relatively cheap and porsche concluded that a SC gives better performance on the 944 engine than a turbo.

It would be interesting to see the a side by side comparison of the dollar amount for the car, then the ugrade, upgrade cost, upgrade total HP/TQ for a 944na, 944na with sc, 944na with turbo block/head and sc, 944 turbo with various mods, various ls1 hybrids.

Like this:

944na stock - 944na KB SC with turbo engine base - 944 turbo stock - 944 turbo mod #1 - 944 turbo mod #2 - ls1 #1 - ls1 #2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$2k - $6k - $8k - $12k - $20k - $7k - $9k
140hp - 250hp - 190hp - 290hp - 300hp - 300hp - 450HP
140TQ - 220TQ - 180TQ - 290TQ - 300TQ - 300TQ - 450TQ


---

If we had some actual numbers here you could see what really makes sense to do for the money.

Matt H

Problem is that a 944SC is not going to be faster than a 951. While you could upgrade every part of the car that makes ZERO sense. You can just go buy exactly what you are trying to build. I dont understand why people want to recreate the wheel when a perfectly balanced, exceptionally good wheel exists for a very attractive price.

Where did you find this data?

Here is the issue, you will never be able to run a 24psi SC on a 944 for any reasonable amount of money. It really is that simple. Your theory is flawed from the beginning.

Lets use these principals:944 NA, excellent condition (I see no other reason to bother if the car isnt an excellent one), worth 7K dollars (high end I know but we said excellent).

If the KB SC is 8K (and I know that making it run would be more than that) = 15K dollars, plus brakes, trans, suspension maybe a total of 18K dollars. Lets say it yeilds 275HP instead of your 250.

If you use one of Tim's kits you can do a non intercooled SC for about 4500 IIRC. I also seem to rembember these cars making about 200HP.

Stock 944 Turbo (excellent), maybe 10K for an 86 up to about 15K for a mint TS. We will use the K26-6 944 Turbos. 217HP (generally about 190 at the wheels).

Add 1 set of your favorite tuner chips, 500 bucks (pretty much the top end), car should make between 250-280RWHP

Add a Vitesse/Turbo Tim/DIY/etc kit for lets say 3-4K and you have a car that makes 350+HP and 350+ ft/lbs of torque at 15PSI.

Add an LT1 to an NA, I have never seen one done for less than 8K (there might be some but I have talked to a number of owners and they all fall between the 8-12K dollar range for a stock LT-1) and you have an NA that again is at a price of 15K dollars, it still needs brakes, suspension, etc. If I had an NA and wanted to make power this is the way I would go. I STILL dont understand it when you can just buy a Turbo, but that is just me.

Law of diminishing returns. CAN you do an SC, V8 swap, etc? Sure you can, you can also kill an ant with an AK-47. Point is you dont need to, there are more effective and better ways to do what you are trying to accomplish.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

L8 APEKS

I might finally be the owner of a 944 that actually runs by the end of the week. It will be an N/A. I owned a few VW Corrados, which are also supercharged 8v 4's. My last one used an Opcon AutoRotor, aka Lysholm, aka Whipple supercharger...and I loved it. Positive displacement meant the car felt like it had a V8 rather than a boosted four (257 and 266 to the front wheels, 2425 lb curb weight!).

What's this $8k KB blower all about? I can tell you it certainly does NOT cost $10k to get 300whp out of that 2.5L 8v with a supercharger. My Corrados were all 1.8L 8v, and my blower was 1500 bucks (Lysholm twin screw pos disp).

I am EXTREMELY interested in a cost-effective supercharger kit for an N/A 8v. As much as I want to lobby for use of a positive displacement blower (like the lysholm), the difference in the final power output between different styles of chargers will probably be minimal. And while a centrifugal blower might not create a powerband that exudes brute force, it will be smoother and easier on all the other parts of our 17 year old cars. So I'll take what I can get.

I'm not a big fan of Eaton superchargers, but heck...if it works, it works. And since used Eatons in good condition can be bought for $300, I'm wondering why nobody has tried to design a DIY kit for use with the Eaton M62/M90?

That's why I think the Eaton is worth considering...sell a kit with the mounting brackets and plumbing, say around $1000, and let the user supply his own blower. I guess I'm just dreaming. lol.

But spending over $3,000 on a blower kit for an N/A 944 seems a little outlandish. You could sell your 44 and buy a 951 for less money total, and you'd not only be faster - you'd have a better suspension, better brakes, better aerodynamics.

I'm interested, yes...but I really prefer my low-budget DIY idea a lot better. Someone engineer an Eaton kit!!!

86 951 Driver

We need an intake manifold like the one huntley used to make. Its all about he Intake manifold and fuel management. The AFM to MAP/MAF costs so much to convert its redicolus. I have looked for kits to convert it and looked for fuel management. If I could find that cheaply I could most likely figure out an idea for an intake manifold.

944J

Here is what I am thinking so far:

1) get a used 951 block (1986 for the forged parts) or put in new lower compression pistons in your 944 block
2) get a used twin screw (whipple, kenne bell) super charger (or eaton m-90 if you really want cheap cost but more heat/worse high end performance)
3) 951 intercooler
4) pipes and stuff
5) hire a welder to make the intake and bracket so that the sc is right ontop of the engine and the flow is great, maybe duplicate a huntley, it looked like they just bolted a lot together pretty scrappy
6) figure out the electronics and fuel (lots of custom aftermarket tuners available)
7) maybe bigger injectors
8) the right boost pulley

My uneducated guess is that this should be able to get you 300rwhp for the least amount of money on an 944 non turbo.

Btw, here are the research papers from Porsche that they did showing how a supercharger on a 944 engine outperforms a turbocharger. (http://venturait.com/944sc/)

Does anyone have values for the amount of boost into the intake of a 951 and the amount of HP/TQ that results per RPM value?

944J

http://venturait.com/944sc/

why is it flawed? I'm talking about running 24psi on a 951 engine which is just a 944 engine with lower compression.

$3k for a good 944na
$10k for a good 951

this give you $7k for engine and suspension parts and if you are a good DIYer then I dont see how you can go wrong...

why is it limited to 275hp?

why not lower the compression on tim's and increase the boost to give 300rwhp?

and use a positive displacement supercharger to give good low end torque?

if its just $3k to get 350 rwhp/rwtq from a stock 951 then this is a good idea, but keep in mind its $7k more than a 944na to start out plus $4k for the vitesse kit which adds up to -- $11k more ---

yeah pay $11k more than a 944na, maybe better maybe more effective, but not cheap.

people with 944na's are the one's who want to balance out cost with performance...

thats just my unexperience and uneducated views as of now...

944J

we could all chip in and hire an experienced fabricator to make a kit that would consist of:

1) brackets for an eaton m-90
2) brackets for a twin screw SC
3) intake for each

we could get all parts possible on your own

maybe even search for parts from other cars that would just require a holl drilled here and there to fit

any similar engines have a sc?

maybe make the kit so that it can work with a number of different superchargers and the intake too?

once we get the kit then we draw up plans that will allow anyone to take the plans

and go to his buddy or hire a fabricator to do the welds and cutting and make his own kit

whoever chipped in at first could share in the profits from selling the plans or we could just give it away for free

Manning

Does somebody care to explain once and for all why one of a damning issues with supercharger install or engine swap always seems to be suspension and brakes? I understand the brakes on the 951 are better, but that technology was available when the 937 was built and I seem to recall the GTS version had the same brakes as the 8V 944s. So how is it that all of the sudden the brakes used on the 245 bhp GTS are not adequate for a supercharges car making around the same numbers.

And considering shocks are likely going to be pretty close to toasted on any bone stock original 944 or 951, you're going to have to 'upgrade' your suspension anyway, so that is a moot point as well. Even if the shocks aren't fried, how many people do not take the opportunity to 'upgrade' to the ubiqitous Koni yellows at some point in 944/51 ownership? Sure the spindles on the later 951 are beefier, but are you really hauling your turbo car down from that much higher speeds and corning loads to the point where that is a concern compared to an NA?

I mean really, how many 951 owners really consider the stock suspension on their cars adequate? Not many that I see on Rennlist.

I cannot see how these two points are so often considered a 'must do immediately when you do a swap' issue and I now declare for now and all time that these points are moot!

Matt H

Thanks for the link, it is hard to read to you have it in high res? I would love to read it over.

Because you are not likely to be able to run 24 psi without breaking components.

If you can get a good enough NA for 3K to SC without spending a buttload of money making the car right, maybe you are right. You can get a similar condition 951 to a 3K 944 for about 6K dollars. A 3K dollar 944 is going to be pretty damn rough in most cases.
May not be but you said 250, I was going up.

Why not ask Tim this question?

It is that cheap and you cant find what you are looking for. Werent you the guy expectining to find the 2K dollar 951? Wont happen. It isnt 7K more to start with a 951 than an NA.

In the mid 90s when I bought my first one this made some sense. NAs could be bought for 8-10K in good shape but the turbos were still MUCH more expensive. They dropped in price much slower than the NAs. At this point in time good 951 can be had so cheap that there is ZERO reason to buy an NA and go the SC route.

Those arent the damning issues. The fact that you get less performance from every part of the car and will spend as much as the 951 is the damning issue. I never thought I would be one of those "sell it and buy a turbo" guys but the truth is, that IS the correct advice. It is black and white. The best way to get 250HP in a 944 is to buy a 951.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

944J

Check the boards, a month earlier and a month later guys each found their own ~$2k 951's.

I'm not talking about 240hp 944na's we are talking about 300hp.

You still didnt add up the numbers

$10k for the 951
$4k for the vitesse

$14k

---

$3k for the 944na
$5k for the custome sc and lower compression/ engine work
$2k for used 951/968 suspension parts and brakes

$10k
----

the na with a sc will out accelerate a stock 951 and maybe even a modded one from what I've heard and the na I've outlined can have as many HP as $5-$6k in engine mods will buy.

If you want to spend $14k on an na then you can beat a vitesse 951

$3k 944na
$11k in engine,sc, suspension, fiberglass/carbon fiber parts, brakes
$14k (same price as the 951 you said)
(will be faster acceleration and handle better than the $14k 951 you are talking about)

Keep in mind your $14k vitesse 951 has stock suspension while this 944na can have a totally tricked out coilover supsension with almost anything you want.

Also my numbers for the 944na are very exagerated since I got my na for $550. And there are na's ALL OVER for much cheaper than $3k. My 944

The less you spend on the car. The more you can spend on the engine and suspension.

Manning

Matt,

Maybe. But if I got my hands on a complete engine out of a 951 I wouldn't hesitate to drop it in my 924S. Like I said before, it is pretty rare that the components in question go untouched for long, so in my case they are basically already taken care of.

Hell, the 914 and 911 crowd do this stuff all the time. Is it an economically sound proposition? I doubt it, but I bet those folks enjoy the **** out of their cars just the same.

86 951 Driver

How could you control fuel once you had the supercharger? Thats my main obstacle. I don't think mounting a supercharger to the motor is hard. I will start to look at this more when I have time.