The (very long) story of my AMW rebuild experience.
01-18-2004, 11:41 PM
#46
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Ok, I will type this slowly and deliberately hoping words dont get taken out of context again.
Dave was asked why he didnt just look for another clean car when he realized the cost would go over $6000.
I replied to that post. I was into my S2 for over 26k in three years, and didnt regret it because every time i did a repair, i figured it would be the last one for a long while. My buddy on the other hand is bailing out of his A6 with 60k because he isn't willing to spend $2500 with the caveat it may increase (and who is going to put forth the argument that it wont go over the estimate?).
twenty twenty hindsight is wonderful. I could have bought a mint 968 for less than I had into my S2, Dave could have done the same.
The scratch the perfect paint on the mullet was a backhanded insult to the mullets suspension. I dont regret buying it, i just want to spend the difference (whats left of the rx7 $$) on another toy before it has to go into a new bathroom.
and downtown covington kentucky is really beautiful! awesome brownstones, great views of the river, and a few great restaurants!
Dave was asked why he didnt just look for another clean car when he realized the cost would go over $6000.
I replied to that post. I was into my S2 for over 26k in three years, and didnt regret it because every time i did a repair, i figured it would be the last one for a long while. My buddy on the other hand is bailing out of his A6 with 60k because he isn't willing to spend $2500 with the caveat it may increase (and who is going to put forth the argument that it wont go over the estimate?).
twenty twenty hindsight is wonderful. I could have bought a mint 968 for less than I had into my S2, Dave could have done the same.
The scratch the perfect paint on the mullet was a backhanded insult to the mullets suspension. I dont regret buying it, i just want to spend the difference (whats left of the rx7 $$) on another toy before it has to go into a new bathroom.
and downtown covington kentucky is really beautiful! awesome brownstones, great views of the river, and a few great restaurants!
01-18-2004, 11:55 PM
#47
You think 944's have flaws it aint nothing compared to the mega bucks Ferrari's. Yet there are millions of drivers willing to give an arm and leg for the chance to own a Ferrari which will spend most of it's life in the garage and drain entire life savings.
Tom, I've always had the impression that you really didn't like your car. You consistantly say that the RX7 is better, and even in the little rating of your own car thing, the Porsche came dead last behind everything else. Not that I've ever had much of a problem with it, I just thought it was odd, and kinda cynical of the cars.
01-19-2004, 12:16 AM
#48
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My $0.02:
1. Dave learned a valuable lesson about 944 maintenance economics/shady practice vendors and had the generosity to share it with us.
2. For the money spent, Dave could very well almost have bought Damian's 968 coupé, but IIRC that car was way too nice to become a track car, and as I understand from Dave's posts, that's a big factor in his owning a Porsche.
3. Like Pete and others have said, Dave's and Tom R.'s bad experience with 944 engines does not make all 944s unreliable.
-My 83 has 206,450 miles on the odo and nothing has ever been done to the engine but belts and front seals. I don't track it but have driven it very hard for over 120K during the past 10 years.
-My S2 has around 140K on the odo and is also a rock solid driver. We just replaced the shocks on it and it's become a regular cruiser on the Spanish highways elbowing it's way with much newer cars at 120+mph speeds, no probs.
-My 951 has had ZERO problems in the 3 years I've owned it, putting it through 1,000 mile trips at a sitting at 100+ mph average speeds...
4. From years of reading Pano and the different iterations of Rennlist, it's become my understanding that if you track a car, you need to be prepared for unexpected maintenance issues from the added wear and tear. Racing teams have sizeable budgets for a reason.
5. I must say Tom R. has a lot of character to say some of the things he does, particularly in these forums, but like others have said, I'm just waiting for him to get himself another Porsche and join in the fun with the rest of us.
Peace.
1. Dave learned a valuable lesson about 944 maintenance economics/shady practice vendors and had the generosity to share it with us.
2. For the money spent, Dave could very well almost have bought Damian's 968 coupé, but IIRC that car was way too nice to become a track car, and as I understand from Dave's posts, that's a big factor in his owning a Porsche.
3. Like Pete and others have said, Dave's and Tom R.'s bad experience with 944 engines does not make all 944s unreliable.
-My 83 has 206,450 miles on the odo and nothing has ever been done to the engine but belts and front seals. I don't track it but have driven it very hard for over 120K during the past 10 years.
-My S2 has around 140K on the odo and is also a rock solid driver. We just replaced the shocks on it and it's become a regular cruiser on the Spanish highways elbowing it's way with much newer cars at 120+mph speeds, no probs.
-My 951 has had ZERO problems in the 3 years I've owned it, putting it through 1,000 mile trips at a sitting at 100+ mph average speeds...
4. From years of reading Pano and the different iterations of Rennlist, it's become my understanding that if you track a car, you need to be prepared for unexpected maintenance issues from the added wear and tear. Racing teams have sizeable budgets for a reason.
5. I must say Tom R. has a lot of character to say some of the things he does, particularly in these forums, but like others have said, I'm just waiting for him to get himself another Porsche and join in the fun with the rest of us.
Peace.
01-19-2004, 12:19 AM
#49
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"Tom, I've always had the impression that you really didn't like your car. You consistantly say that the RX7 is better, and even in the little rating of your own car thing, the Porsche came dead last behind everything else. Not that I've ever had much of a problem with it, I just thought it was odd, and kinda cynical of the cars."
Im kinda cynical about everything!
I liked the car. I'm all for enthusiasm for what we own, not for what i own is the be all and end all and everything else sucks, even if i have no real knowledge of anything else. There is a letter in this month's sports car market magazine that lays out all the maintenance costs of a 944 written by a porsche shop owner. my car was very reliable, and a great driver, however, my porsche bubble was burst the first time i was in a little snow and learned my $45000 msrp 89 porsche i bought in 00 didnt come with LSD while my 16000 msrp 85 RX7 that was stolen in 90 did. same with other options.
Im kinda cynical about everything!
I liked the car. I'm all for enthusiasm for what we own, not for what i own is the be all and end all and everything else sucks, even if i have no real knowledge of anything else. There is a letter in this month's sports car market magazine that lays out all the maintenance costs of a 944 written by a porsche shop owner. my car was very reliable, and a great driver, however, my porsche bubble was burst the first time i was in a little snow and learned my $45000 msrp 89 porsche i bought in 00 didnt come with LSD while my 16000 msrp 85 RX7 that was stolen in 90 did. same with other options.
01-19-2004, 12:22 AM
#50
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OK Dave, I have to ask the question, "why are east coast guys coming to Socal for a motor job in the first place?" The shipping charges alone are enough to discurage me (if I lived there). Additionally, if i were to have someone that far away build me an engine I think I'd pay Southwest $200 to go meet the guy that I'm spending $5K with. It may or may not have saved you the other charges you're referring to.
However, I am sorry you didn't get what you thought you paid for. Look at the crap that's clouding Huntley right now. There's alot of local guys, as well as others that want their money back.
However, I am sorry you didn't get what you thought you paid for. Look at the crap that's clouding Huntley right now. There's alot of local guys, as well as others that want their money back.
01-19-2004, 01:20 AM
#51
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Originally posted by David Ray
OK Dave, I have to ask the question, "why are east coast guys coming to Socal for a motor job in the first place?" The shipping charges alone are enough to discurage me (if I lived there). Additionally, if i were to have someone that far away build me an engine I think I'd pay Southwest $200 to go meet the guy that I'm spending $5K with. It may or may not have saved you the other charges you're referring to.
However, I am sorry you didn't get what you thought you paid for. Look at the crap that's clouding Huntley right now. There's alot of local guys, as well as others that want their money back.
OK Dave, I have to ask the question, "why are east coast guys coming to Socal for a motor job in the first place?" The shipping charges alone are enough to discurage me (if I lived there). Additionally, if i were to have someone that far away build me an engine I think I'd pay Southwest $200 to go meet the guy that I'm spending $5K with. It may or may not have saved you the other charges you're referring to.
However, I am sorry you didn't get what you thought you paid for. Look at the crap that's clouding Huntley right now. There's alot of local guys, as well as others that want their money back.
01-19-2004, 11:36 AM
#52
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Luis has it pretty well figured out, I hadn't even mentioned that I felt that Damian's coupe was to nice for my purposes, but the thought DID cross my mind while I was making my decision.
I agree that the 944 is not unreliable, the fact that my factory engine lasted only 102K miles is an anomaly as far as I'm concerned (my trans has >320K on it). The problems I've had since this fiasco started are not indicative of an unreliable car, they were caused by poor workmanship.
I also agree that racing a car can accelerate wear. In this case the car had 2 seasons of autox and 2 days of DE on it, so I still consider ring failure @ such low milage to be unusual. Once the motor came apart, it was very clean inside. It was much nicer than either of the new motors, there wasn't even a ridge at the top of the cylinders. Aside from the rings, this motor still had/has a LOT of life left in it. The original engine WILL be reassembled, it really does need only rings but the bearings will be replaced while its apart.
Tom, In '85 the MSRP of a 944 was more like $20-25K, your '89 S2 is a little unfair considering the difference in time and available equipment (IIRC no ABS or airbags on an an '85 Mazda).
David Ray, At the time, I had an estimate for $5500-6000 from my mechanic, they had included >$2000 for oversized pistons which we had not yet realized we wouldn't need. From my other posts you will remember that this was more than I cared to spend on rebuilding a stock NA which would be worth no more than $7000 in the end. I tried the shop that Damian in NJ recommended and they were so busy that they weren't interested. The next 2 shops in the area were among the shops that Andy K had problems with around that time and were ruled out. The next nearest place was one that Alan C won't mention by name. By now we are an hour away or more in every direction, remember that the motor is partially disassembled so I'd have a towing bill to add to the list in addition to paying my usual mechanic for his time disassembling and all.
There are NOT a lot of Porsche shops in this area, let alone tuners in this area. Racing is seasonal here and while there are a handful of shops, some are 911 guys, some are busy and might not take on more work (something AMW should do instead of telling customers "3 weeks" when it will be >3 months), and some of them just plain suck (I guess we have them on both coasts?) A couple shops didn't return my calls, and a couple shops said "between $3500-6000, we'll know once we tear it down," again, this would involve towing and all.
So when a guy with a good reputation calls me and offers me a good price on a shortblock, which can be installed where the car sits (no towing, no pay him and start over with someone else that I have no experience with), what am I to do? If John had come through with a quality product in the timeframe that he said it would take, I would be as happy with him as you are. I could even forgive one or the other, if that first motor had worked the way it should I would have gotten over the delay. If an additional $5000 hadn't come out of my pocket to fix AMW's errors, I might even consider myself a satisfied customer.
As far as I am concerned, John did not keep his word on the time this would take, AMW sent me defective product in both the head and the block, and John did not keep his word to "work something out on the labor" (his words). Are you telling me that taking a day off to spend 14 or so hours on a plain and a couple taxi rides would have changed this? At what point should I have done this? Before I gave him my credit card number (that was charged illegally when I gave it to him, not when the motor was shipped), or should I have flown out there to see the motor before it left his shop (like I could have pinned down that date
)?
There actually was a point when I considered flying out there, but it would have gotten me a free tour of the local PD and I would have missed my return flight.
BTW, I have never even been to Texas, but I still get excellent service from Paragon.
For the record, I never claimed to have spent $5000 with AMW (as you wrote), that figure was for the whole job including buying the short block from AMW and installation locally. The local shop got the lion's share of the $10K, the machine shop that redid the head got some too (they wouldn't have been involved if the head wasn't off a junker in the first place, maybe in the future AMW will get their heads from RUNNING vehicles!)
David, I think you need to remember that right now there are still some Huntley customers out there who are happy with what they got from him and sad to see him go. I'll bet it was that way with Garrity before that!
I agree that the 944 is not unreliable, the fact that my factory engine lasted only 102K miles is an anomaly as far as I'm concerned (my trans has >320K on it). The problems I've had since this fiasco started are not indicative of an unreliable car, they were caused by poor workmanship.
I also agree that racing a car can accelerate wear. In this case the car had 2 seasons of autox and 2 days of DE on it, so I still consider ring failure @ such low milage to be unusual. Once the motor came apart, it was very clean inside. It was much nicer than either of the new motors, there wasn't even a ridge at the top of the cylinders. Aside from the rings, this motor still had/has a LOT of life left in it. The original engine WILL be reassembled, it really does need only rings but the bearings will be replaced while its apart.
Tom, In '85 the MSRP of a 944 was more like $20-25K, your '89 S2 is a little unfair considering the difference in time and available equipment (IIRC no ABS or airbags on an an '85 Mazda).
David Ray, At the time, I had an estimate for $5500-6000 from my mechanic, they had included >$2000 for oversized pistons which we had not yet realized we wouldn't need. From my other posts you will remember that this was more than I cared to spend on rebuilding a stock NA which would be worth no more than $7000 in the end. I tried the shop that Damian in NJ recommended and they were so busy that they weren't interested. The next 2 shops in the area were among the shops that Andy K had problems with around that time and were ruled out. The next nearest place was one that Alan C won't mention by name. By now we are an hour away or more in every direction, remember that the motor is partially disassembled so I'd have a towing bill to add to the list in addition to paying my usual mechanic for his time disassembling and all.
There are NOT a lot of Porsche shops in this area, let alone tuners in this area. Racing is seasonal here and while there are a handful of shops, some are 911 guys, some are busy and might not take on more work (something AMW should do instead of telling customers "3 weeks" when it will be >3 months), and some of them just plain suck (I guess we have them on both coasts?) A couple shops didn't return my calls, and a couple shops said "between $3500-6000, we'll know once we tear it down," again, this would involve towing and all.
So when a guy with a good reputation calls me and offers me a good price on a shortblock, which can be installed where the car sits (no towing, no pay him and start over with someone else that I have no experience with), what am I to do? If John had come through with a quality product in the timeframe that he said it would take, I would be as happy with him as you are. I could even forgive one or the other, if that first motor had worked the way it should I would have gotten over the delay. If an additional $5000 hadn't come out of my pocket to fix AMW's errors, I might even consider myself a satisfied customer.
As far as I am concerned, John did not keep his word on the time this would take, AMW sent me defective product in both the head and the block, and John did not keep his word to "work something out on the labor" (his words). Are you telling me that taking a day off to spend 14 or so hours on a plain and a couple taxi rides would have changed this? At what point should I have done this? Before I gave him my credit card number (that was charged illegally when I gave it to him, not when the motor was shipped), or should I have flown out there to see the motor before it left his shop (like I could have pinned down that date
)?There actually was a point when I considered flying out there, but it would have gotten me a free tour of the local PD and I would have missed my return flight.
BTW, I have never even been to Texas, but I still get excellent service from Paragon.
For the record, I never claimed to have spent $5000 with AMW (as you wrote), that figure was for the whole job including buying the short block from AMW and installation locally. The local shop got the lion's share of the $10K, the machine shop that redid the head got some too (they wouldn't have been involved if the head wasn't off a junker in the first place, maybe in the future AMW will get their heads from RUNNING vehicles!)
David, I think you need to remember that right now there are still some Huntley customers out there who are happy with what they got from him and sad to see him go. I'll bet it was that way with Garrity before that!
01-19-2004, 11:50 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
I am not sure how anyone can fault Dave for buying something from the west coast. Where are all the tuners, mostly on the west coast as its a yr round business. A lot of local shops don't even keep a crew during the winter months for this reason.
That said, I think people need to see what the purpose of the post is, its not about how reliable or unreliable Porsches can be. Its not about buying an engine on the east coast or west coast, its about someone being out for a lot of $$ with no recourse. I personally know Dave and he is a true gentleman in every right and the fact he has waited all this time to voice his experience is a good example of what his intensions are. He just wants to make sure people hear his experience and base their decisions upon that, which took a little prodding before he publicly came out with his story.
I would suggest people stick to the topic of Dave's engine build and not about east coast and west coast, accelerated wear by auto-x or how Porsches are horrible cars.
Regards.
That said, I think people need to see what the purpose of the post is, its not about how reliable or unreliable Porsches can be. Its not about buying an engine on the east coast or west coast, its about someone being out for a lot of $$ with no recourse. I personally know Dave and he is a true gentleman in every right and the fact he has waited all this time to voice his experience is a good example of what his intensions are. He just wants to make sure people hear his experience and base their decisions upon that, which took a little prodding before he publicly came out with his story.
I would suggest people stick to the topic of Dave's engine build and not about east coast and west coast, accelerated wear by auto-x or how Porsches are horrible cars.
Regards.
Last edited by RajDatta; 02-27-2004 at 01:22 AM.
01-19-2004, 12:36 PM
#54
I have a somewhat unrelated question.
Has anyone seen a setup where a 944 engine is put on a stand for testing/break-in before being installed in a car?
I would assume such a setup could be expensive. For example, it would require that you have several types of DME's on hand, etc. Could a setup for a GM/Ford/Dodge engine be adapted for this purpose? What would the cost be?
I was thinking that this kind of setup might solve a problem before it happens. You might also be able to find oil leaks in a newly rebuilt engine before installation.
Has anyone seen a setup where a 944 engine is put on a stand for testing/break-in before being installed in a car?
I would assume such a setup could be expensive. For example, it would require that you have several types of DME's on hand, etc. Could a setup for a GM/Ford/Dodge engine be adapted for this purpose? What would the cost be?
I was thinking that this kind of setup might solve a problem before it happens. You might also be able to find oil leaks in a newly rebuilt engine before installation.
01-19-2004, 12:58 PM
#55
Has anyone seen a setup where a 944 engine is put on a stand for testing/break-in before being installed in a car?
01-19-2004, 02:16 PM
#56
Originally posted by jc22
Yea, it's called an engine dyno and they are expensive. Good engine building shops should have them.
Yea, it's called an engine dyno and they are expensive. Good engine building shops should have them.
01-19-2004, 03:06 PM
#57
No, there isnt. Most engine shops DO NOT have them because they are so expensive.
One of the top RX7 tuners in the country is 30 mins from my house, they build custom stuff all day long, they charge TWO arms and a leg, and they dont have an engine dyno. When I asked why, he said, costs too much.
As for what coast you bought it on, who cares? I have bought parts from all over, including Canada. Should I ask less of my parts if I didnt buy them locally? If I needed a motor I would probably use Don Istook because he has a great rep and he is local, that being said, I would have no problem using Milledge and he is not.
Dave - it sucks. Not much else to say. You have found the problem with buying an engine somewhere and not having that person install it. The builder will always blame the installer and vise-versa.
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One of the top RX7 tuners in the country is 30 mins from my house, they build custom stuff all day long, they charge TWO arms and a leg, and they dont have an engine dyno. When I asked why, he said, costs too much.
As for what coast you bought it on, who cares? I have bought parts from all over, including Canada. Should I ask less of my parts if I didnt buy them locally? If I needed a motor I would probably use Don Istook because he has a great rep and he is local, that being said, I would have no problem using Milledge and he is not.
Dave - it sucks. Not much else to say. You have found the problem with buying an engine somewhere and not having that person install it. The builder will always blame the installer and vise-versa.
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01-19-2004, 03:18 PM
#59
Well, let me ask another stupid question.
Are you trying to get torque/hp curves, or just make sure the engine starts, and can rev up and down to the redline with a load of the flywheel.
If you were trying to do a simple test, could you make an improvised test stand with:
- fuel supply
- dme / electrical
- radiator/cooling
I guess one problem would be that if you were only shipping shortblocks/longblocks, installing/removing the accessories and wiring in your test setup could be prohibitively expensive, and might compare to installing it in the car itself.
Or could you bolt up something to the flywheel, spin it up to pressure test the engine and check for compression and oil leaks? Maybe that would not have identified the problem that Dave saw.
Just brainstorming.
Are you trying to get torque/hp curves, or just make sure the engine starts, and can rev up and down to the redline with a load of the flywheel.
If you were trying to do a simple test, could you make an improvised test stand with:
- fuel supply
- dme / electrical
- radiator/cooling
I guess one problem would be that if you were only shipping shortblocks/longblocks, installing/removing the accessories and wiring in your test setup could be prohibitively expensive, and might compare to installing it in the car itself.
Or could you bolt up something to the flywheel, spin it up to pressure test the engine and check for compression and oil leaks? Maybe that would not have identified the problem that Dave saw.
Just brainstorming.
01-19-2004, 03:28 PM
#60
Kevin - some shops will build a test stand, but it requires:
Oil
Coolant
BIG buckets to catch the coolant that flows through
some sort of fuel controller
some sort of remote starter (cheap)
etc
etc
etc
Its certainly an idea if you build them for a living but for the house it would not make a lot of sense. Every builder that I know turns the engine by hand a number of times to check for compression (oil leaks dont always show up like this, you really arent doing much to the engine itself this way).
I have no problem believing a good engine dyno costs close to 6 figures PLUS the time to hook everything up.
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Oil
Coolant
BIG buckets to catch the coolant that flows through
some sort of fuel controller
some sort of remote starter (cheap)
etc
etc
etc
Its certainly an idea if you build them for a living but for the house it would not make a lot of sense. Every builder that I know turns the engine by hand a number of times to check for compression (oil leaks dont always show up like this, you really arent doing much to the engine itself this way).
I have no problem believing a good engine dyno costs close to 6 figures PLUS the time to hook everything up.
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