Giovanni

<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2003-05-08-sti_x.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2003-05-08-sti_x.htm</a>
or
<a href="http://www.imprezawrxsti.com/postnuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1403&sid=8e5580cd5 5e8fe553720542329d73c8c" target="_blank">http://www.imprezawrxsti.com/postnuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1403&sid=8e5580cd5 5e8fe553720542329d73c8c</a>

SleeperWRX

here's the image from the above posted link:
<img src="http://images.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/sti.jpg" alt=" - " />

I don't see how an A4 with an rs4 swap can be considered the biggest sleeper ever...at best that's what 2-4 times more hp than it was?

how about a supra swap in a rusted out 80's corrola that runs 10's...now that's a real sleeper. like 70hp to 700hp. its in nyc...the guy hustles street racers. you can tell its not a normal corolla but nobody expects that kind of insane power to come out of that POS.

on a side noteif i was gonna rs4 swap something it would be an elise

Roamer

ads, you live in So Cal?
Try taking those 80's toyotas up into the NE in the salt belt, not many jap cars from the pre 90s without holes in them. Far more old audis, bimmers, saabs, volvos, etc. and these are the European cars that were not built that well. The newer german cars come pretty close to the japs in day to day reliability while still being light years ahead in durability, chassis dynamics, etc.

As for JD, c'mon, that's like relying on Consumer's Reports for picking your next car. I hope you enjoy your Camry.

As for 951 vs. Supra, my father owned an 87 supra turbo, yes all the electrics worked but the motor overheated constantly, in the NE, not new mexico, the turbos were shot by 100k, and it rattled. As a car, it was a big heavy GT that did not do much well, the 951 was and still is a far superior car even with its electrical glitches.

I was watching a show on Lambos and Ferraris tonight and was thinking do you think any of these guys care if a new subie is quicker than their 20+ year old cars? Absolutely not. The japs advantage in overall performance is minimal but the exotics advantage in the driving experience is huge. It is no concidence that we are not restoring and racing our old CRXs (my second favorite car, but a DISTANT second).

If a subie will make you feel the way your porsche does, sell the porsche.

ThePuf

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by SleeperWRX:
<strong>I don't see how an A4 with an rs4 swap can be considered the biggest sleeper ever...at best that's what 2-4 times more hp than it was?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Sorry mate, but you're confused. If you read Ed's post again, you'll see that he's not referring to the A4, but to the older s4 which is based on the old Audi 100 body, running 2.2 litre turbocharged engines. Not many pple are aware of their potential. These cars look like fuddy duddy saloons but with some work, they can go like stink. I once read about a s4 tuned by MTM that could spank a Lambo Diablo and a GSX1100(?) bike. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

A sleeper doesn't have to be a crapped out pos that's got an outrageous engine in it. Any unassuming car that goes unfeasibly beyond its visual potential can be considered a sleeper, IMHO.

Elise with RS4 engine? I seem to recall something on that through the haze. Is this a reality? totally mad... <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

Puf

Harold

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ThePuf:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by SleeperWRX:
<strong>I don't see how an A4 with an rs4 swap can be considered the biggest sleeper ever...at best that's what 2-4 times more hp than it was?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Sorry mate, but you're confused. If you read Ed's post again, you'll see that he's not referring to the A4, but to the older s4 which is based on the old Audi 100 body, running 2.2 litre turbocharged engines. Not many pple are aware of their potential. These cars look like fuddy duddy saloons but with some work, they can go like stink. I once read about a s4 tuned by MTM that could spank a Lambo Diablo and a GSX1100(?) bike. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

A sleeper doesn't have to be a crapped out pos that's got an outrageous engine in it. Any unassuming car that goes unfeasibly beyond its visual potential can be considered a sleeper, IMHO.

Elise with RS4 engine? I seem to recall something on that through the haze. Is this a reality? totally mad... <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

Puf</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hey Puf,

You run an MX-5 with super charger? I used to own 2 Miata's some time back---they were absolutely fun!!!!

ThePuf

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Harold:
<strong>
You run an MX-5 with super charger? I used to own 2 Miata's some time back---they were absolutely fun!!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" />

Indeed huge fun. You have a nice, well maintained car. We should meet up sometime for a chat

Puf

Ed Bighi

Puf, you see why the S4 (Audi 100 based) like the V8, is a sleeper. Even when you clearly explain what car you are talking about they still picture an A4. Evidence right there. Heck the cars are so unknown I might as well be talking about an Alpine A310 or Monteverdi Hai. I think a modified S4, which is already at M5 levels stock, is a neat car because it isn't single purpose. It is a 5 passenger car that is designed to get you and your family from point a to point b in the shortest time possible. Even in the middle of winter along with the possibility of doing well in a stupid stoplight race. Not to mention outstanding build quality. And it satisfies the elitist in me by the simple fact that the non-conoisseur does not even know what it is.

But I tell you, a Supra swap in a corolla gets me going. That has to funny as hell.

As far as Audi build quality, the reason one does not see a lot of early nineties Audis on the road is because of two reasons. One is because the person insn't in Colorado which is jam packed with the things. The other because there weren't a lot of cars sold due to the morons that wanted to sue Audi. Audi won all suits by the way. But it was too late. They were selling less than a third of what they sold back in the eighties. By virtue of being under Volkswagen, fortunately they were able to keep operating. They also did the best they could on their own by engineering some great cars for the era along with builiding at quality levels at or above Mercedes for their flagship models.

The funny thing about build quality is that just like a lot of people mentioned, it takes seven to ten years to see where the truth comes out. Even within the same manufacturer. A perfect example is the Mercedes 124 in comparison with the 210. Lately, I am seeing more 124's on the road than I see 210's. Even though the 210 is the more recent car. Though that one might be suspect since a lot of people, my wife who will not part with her 124 unless it is another one in the form of the 500E included, could never get over the ugglier front end of the 210. But that is a tough comparison. It is easier to make a case when comparing the 124 to some Japanese counterpart. That is obvious to anyone but a blind person. But an excellent example of German durability is the Mercedes 240D. I don't need to make a case for this one. Just go anywhere in the third world, and you will see the car making a case for itself. Built like Panzers, it is arguable that Mercedes' reputation has more to do with this single car than any other.

Durability aside, parts availability is also very important. Go try to find some obscure interior part for a Japanese car ten to fifteen years after it stopped being produced and see what happens. Though there are exceptions, it can at most times be frustrating. On the other hand, I can pop into any Porsche and Benz dealer today and virtually build my entire interior again. This isn't the case with Japanese and American cars. The American and Japanese manufacturers aren't in the business of building cars that last forever. Their reputations were not built on those parameters, with the notable exception of the old Land Cruiser line. They are in the business of competing with the Europeans at a chaeper price. Not to mention the fact that they want you in there again in two years. Their ideal customer is a lemming who follows the crowd and gets whatever is fashionable that month while trying to save a buck. Up until the early nineties, the Germans were still operating under the age old teutonic belief that if you built a product that would last decades, you would eventually build a reputation that brought more "new" customers in. This while the old ones would come back for parts. Styling of the cars never changed much because it just wasn't necesssary from a logical and engineering stadpoint. A good example of that is the 911, Mercedes Gelaendewagen and Unimog. Of course, it helped that most of those same German companies where being run by engineers who worked their entire carrers at the same company and "trendy" wasn't in their vocabulary. Cars like their cloting were tools and not fashion items. These were the classic types wearing wire rimmed glasses and tweed coats with elbow protectors. A good bunch in my book. But sadly, this is changing. This can be seen by the new breed of Hugo Boss and Armani suit types in the form of Wiedeking and Lagay. But being German, thankfully they still sometimes cling to the old ideals. Again in the form of the Gelaendewagen and Unimog. That is becuase even though Mercedes is now market driven instead of being engineering driven, the market for those said vehicles is pragmatic, not easily bullshifted, and wants only the durability improvements over the last model.

What I am getting at here, is that the German manufacturers are no longer as interested in selling you a lifetime car. They are even making it at little harder to keep you older one going in the hopes of steering you towards a new one. But they won't go to far because they know that the past is what made them and keeps them going. And even though the fit and finish of the new products is great, which is what the everyday guy sees, the guts of the thigs aren't up to the specs of yesteryear. Of course, again, with the exception of the Gelaendewagen and Unimog.

special tool

Ed - have to agree with you. Anyone who has ever taken apart a Porsche and taken apart or worked on any Japanese throw away car knows that the build qualities are not comparable. It will take you an extra half an hour just to get the heat shields off of a Porsche. I believe you can remove the engine from a Miata with a pair of vice-grips.
Those ding-dong gongs when you open the door are pretty substantial, however.

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

Ed Bighi

As far as the comparison between a WRX or any other car and a 911, it is moot. Simply put, a WRX is a car, the 911 something else entirely. Though still a car. Yes, like someone said before, it is like comparing apples to oranges. But it is much more than that. The WRX is an excellent car. Probably one of the best products to come from Japan for a long time. But like other great cars built all over the world, they are just cars.

The 911, along with a couple of other cars, is an icon. The world is full of cars. But there are only a few cars that stand out. As far as performance cars go, there are only three. And those are the 911, the Mini (not the new "Jumbo" that they erroneously call a Mini), and the Cobra. Here are three cars that were produced for very long periods of time virtually unchanged on the exterior, dominated for years in whatever venue they competed in, have a huge following, and could be recognized from a mile away. Not only that, if one were put in blindfolded into any of these three cars, if the smell of the interior or the feel of the seats and door panels don't give it away, just their motion down the street will. Not to mention that if you are sitting in your back yard, you can tell a 911 just went down the street from the sound alone. These three cars, even though perform outstandingly, require more skill to master than any other cars. And once mastered, will reward that superior skill like no other cars will. All three of these cars are not dumbed down for the moron, but instead are optimized for the master. Even Ferrari, who has built some amazing cars, does not have a single car that mach either one of those in all aspects. Perhaps because they built too many one offs, or because they never spent enough time refining what they already had. Maybe the 250GTO could come close, but it wasn't raced or produced long enough to do so. Though the Colombo V12 stirs more souls than any other motor known to man. If one does a list of the greatest drivers cars of all time, at least two of these three cars will make it to the top three.

But it does not end there. Can one find multiple publications that are published every month for the Subaru WRX alone? Probably not. But one can for the Mini and especially the 911. Books are another matter. I have a library at home that I probably invested over $2,000 into, and it is entirely based on the 911. Is there any other car in the world that one can build a library that big on? Never. Why is there so much written on the 911 alone? Because of what the car has achieved. Nothing even comes close. There were other cars produced during the 911's time that might have matched or even exceeded it's performance. But never over a long period of time, almost never by privateers when raced, and never over all types of surfaces. How many cars have won the Paris Dakar, Monte Carlo Rally, The East African Safari, Targa Florio, Le Mans, Daytona 24 and Sebring 12? I can't think of one. Sure, each one of those 911's that won those events was highly modified and optimized for each one of those special types of situations. But how many cars lend themselves to being so easily modified for the task at hand. None that I can think of. A 911 is the closest thing in the car world to a set of Lego building blocks that can become anything. The 911 is the perfect fountation to build the perfect car for the situation at hand. It can be a two liter fun plaything or a 750hp, 210 mph monster that will hold together being punished for 24 hours. You always hear about some guy with an 800hp this or another, but how many of those cars can hold together at Daytona for 24 hours? And to do this on motors built mostly on stock production units. Many have tried and failed. And to to do this on a car that was launched in 1965. There simply is no car like the 911. You simply have to go outside of the sports/performance car realm to find that kind of long term success with any other vehicle. The only thing that can come close in legendary status is the Jeep or maybe even the Mercedes 600. Though the Jeep is purely relegated to off-roading and daily driving, while the Mercedes 600 is used for transporting royalty.

So you see, for someone to make a comparison with some hot car of the moment with the 911, isn't a complete and fair comparison. Simply put, at some day and time, some car beat a 911 which wasn't optimized for whatever the situation called for. He or she on that day basically beat a 911 optimized for giving the driver a fun time of driving and durability to last at least two decades without a rebuild. Of course, it that said 911 had kugelfischer injection, K29, flat fan, and whatever other parts they threw on a flat six to make it a 935, it would not have even been close. And if one makes the argument that the other car could have the suitable modifications to make the same power, I will find a hole in that argument. Simply put, not much will keep up with a 935 through the quarter mile, top speed, braking and cornering and for 24 hours non stop. Not much. Certainly not something that can be driven on the street, be fixed by any home mechanic and crash repaired at any body shop. And while a 935 is a very special car, a 911 that comes very close to a 935's performance parameters can be put together in less than the span of a weekend. And all this with no guesswork or untested practices. One can simply consult the hundreds of pages written for the specific purpose of modifying a 911 to dominate whatever situation it is called for. Want to know what the right shock to run in the Paris Dakar is, look it up. Want to know what gearing you need for something resembling the Targa Florio, look it up. Want to know what bilge pump to adapt to the 930 transmission for something resembling Le Mans, it there. The reason this documentation exhists is because the architecture of the flat six and 911 chassis was refined instead of being deep-sixed every few year of so like in other cars. Unfortunately for regular cars, by the time the tuning becomes perfected, the tuner is basically wasting his time bothering with further development since the new car is already out requiring its own research and development. This does not even take account the huge ammount of expertise that evolved around the 911 in the form of mechanics that specialize on it.

So folks, lets put this issue to rest. Lets just realize that on some date and time, someone in some car beat one of the ifinite forms of the 911 in one situation that the 911 is barely used for. Not to mention in a gear/speed combination which places that particular car at a particular disadvantage. Can any one car be better than a 911 on a certain day, sure. But can any car be better than a 911 in any and every area for all time, no. Ever. And that's it. So let us all put the issue to rest.

Harold

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ThePuf:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Harold:
<strong>
You run an MX-5 with super charger? I used to own 2 Miata's some time back---they were absolutely fun!!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" />

Indeed huge fun. You have a nice, well maintained car. We should meet up sometime for a chat

Puf</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Puf, have private messaged you...

I assume that the well maintained car you refer to is the 964....that went to a new home some time back....

Yes, would love a ride in the Miata sometime...do miss that car....

In terms of the WRX....a good friend runs a 2002 fully modified car. OK, it may certainly not be to everyone's taste, but it is ridiculously fast (up to 200kmh) and handles EXCEPTIONALLY well.

With my rather inaccurate G Tech Pro, I have run 5.32 secs 0-60mph, he did 4.1 secs. In gear up to 160kmh or so, the WRX is awesome, but start hitting 180kmh and above and my trusty 993 will start to gain....after 230kmh, bye bye WRX. In corners, I dont think WRX drivers have to ever worry about lift off oversteer...awesome, absolutely awesome....

nut11

Very nicely put, Ed. Following reading your note, I jumped into my 911 and went for a sinuses clearing drive. Appreciate your well written thoughts.

'85 Carrera Coupe 3.2

gerry100

How many 17 year old cars can be taken to the track by a 52 yr old rookie, run near the redline for two hours a day in 95deg,95RH and after a quick trip to the car wash roll back home running better?

I could of skipped the car wash, but I had to get the souvenir gravel from the turn 1 gravel trap out.

Alan G.

SleeperWRX

ed your comments lost any remaining merit when your argument was reduced to...the 911 isn't just a car so it can't be compared to cars LOL nice cop out!!!

schlag

You like yours, we like ours. Enough.