GT4 RS Driving Impressions
#1051
I was on a very wet and cold track day at Oulton Park on March 1st this year. On the very wet bumpy straights in the morning I was being followed by a very good driver in his 992 Turbo S wearing MP4Ss. Afterwards I got chatting to him and he mentioned that my 4RS was skipping back and forth sideways as it fought for traction. He said it looked pretty dangerous and that's from a very seasoned skilled driver.
The afternoon in complete contrast was bone dry with glorious sunshine. These were two extremes and just highlighted where the 4RS was caught out. Still managed to keep the car on the black stuff so was nowhere as dangerous in reality to what it looked like from behind.
A very good track based geo will settle the car down and transform it on track, at least in my personal experience. I advise mrd_spy take his 4RS so someone like String Theory garage and fit longer rear toe arm links, front camber plates and lower it both front and rear. It really needs a lot of front negative camber otherwise the understeer will wear out the front outer shoulders in mo time at all.
All Porsches leave the factory with a safe road based geo which really doesn't suit fast track driving.
The afternoon in complete contrast was bone dry with glorious sunshine. These were two extremes and just highlighted where the 4RS was caught out. Still managed to keep the car on the black stuff so was nowhere as dangerous in reality to what it looked like from behind.
A very good track based geo will settle the car down and transform it on track, at least in my personal experience. I advise mrd_spy take his 4RS so someone like String Theory garage and fit longer rear toe arm links, front camber plates and lower it both front and rear. It really needs a lot of front negative camber otherwise the understeer will wear out the front outer shoulders in mo time at all.
All Porsches leave the factory with a safe road based geo which really doesn't suit fast track driving.
While fixing the toe in the rear can help, the main issue is just an underdamped rebound stroke. There is a fine line between too little or too much rebound. Most German OEM's set up more for underdamped rebound, but over damped compression.
It isn't as much of an issue when encountering a dip, it's the large bumps which creates the event. This is also why they over damp the compression stroke. This give the car more platform and support, while taking more effort to compress the spring, but on large bumps at speed, you will get high speed compression and that energy from the spring will reverse course and with too little rebound damping, the spring is more uncontrolled than controlled and that momentum carries the shock most if not all the way to its rebound stops. It's unnerving when it happens going straight, but loaded up in a corner, it can be very dangerous.
Porsche & BMW just miss finding the sweet spot for rebound damping.
I Uber often and every time I do , I pay close attention to how cars drive and interestedly, some of the best damped passenger cars are Hondas. The newer Accords and Civics have really dialed in damping. It's kind of a fetish of mine, lol.
Last edited by TRZ06; 05-15-2024 at 07:37 PM.
#1052
A very good track based geo will settle the car down and transform it on track, at least in my personal experience. I advise mrd_spy take his 4RS so someone like String Theory garage and fit longer rear toe arm links, front camber plates and lower it both front and rear. It really needs a lot of front negative camber otherwise the understeer will wear out the front outer shoulders in mo time at all.
All Porsches leave the factory with a safe road based geo which really doesn't suit fast track driving.
All Porsches leave the factory with a safe road based geo which really doesn't suit fast track driving.
Last edited by KelvinC; 05-15-2024 at 09:01 PM.
The following 2 users liked this post by KelvinC:
lovetoturn (05-15-2024),
Taffy66 (05-15-2024)
#1053
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 13,422
Likes: 4,606
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
I was on a very wet and cold track day at Oulton Park on March 1st this year. On the very wet bumpy straights in the morning I was being followed by a very good driver in his 992 Turbo S wearing MP4Ss. Afterwards I got chatting to him and he mentioned that my 4RS was skipping back and forth sideways as it fought for traction. He said it looked pretty dangerous and that's from a very seasoned skilled driver.
The afternoon in complete contrast was bone dry with glorious sunshine. These were two extremes and just highlighted where the 4RS was caught out. Still managed to keep the car on the black stuff so was nowhere as dangerous in reality to what it looked like from behind.
A very good track based geo will settle the car down and transform it on track, at least in my personal experience. I advise mrd_spy take his 4RS so someone like String Theory garage and fit longer rear toe arm links, front camber plates and lower it both front and rear. It really needs a lot of front negative camber otherwise the understeer will wear out the front outer shoulders in mo time at all.
All Porsches leave the factory with a safe road based geo which really doesn't suit fast track driving.
The afternoon in complete contrast was bone dry with glorious sunshine. These were two extremes and just highlighted where the 4RS was caught out. Still managed to keep the car on the black stuff so was nowhere as dangerous in reality to what it looked like from behind.
A very good track based geo will settle the car down and transform it on track, at least in my personal experience. I advise mrd_spy take his 4RS so someone like String Theory garage and fit longer rear toe arm links, front camber plates and lower it both front and rear. It really needs a lot of front negative camber otherwise the understeer will wear out the front outer shoulders in mo time at all.
All Porsches leave the factory with a safe road based geo which really doesn't suit fast track driving.
The following users liked this post:
Mike981S (06-03-2024)
#1054
My car is an early 2024 delivered in September 2023 with bigger tires at 265/305 and ride height is about stock. Maybe it has revised shocks on it, I will look for a number next time I have a wheel off. The bigger rear tires with -3.0 camber and +14 min of toe on TPC offset rear toe links help to stabilize things relative to stock. Because of these things my thoughts and experiences may be a bit more positive than others. I am going to try the DCS box in the next few months ... maybe sooner rather than later after all of this. The DSC actually has slow, medium, and high speed settings for the front and rear of the dampers. You take you original shock setting and then add or subtract a percentage of that under each of these settings. If you use their setting it helps as reported, but I think and hope if one dives deeper into this, even more improvements could be had.
I have not worked with such settings before, but it seems to me if we can soften the rear compression say 10% in medium and 20% in fast; that should allow the shocks to move upward more quickly with less resistance from the car's weight. Then under rebound maybe stiffen it per say 10% in medium and 20% on fast. That way the wheel would come back under more control and be less likely to bounce again. Not sure what the actual numbers would be, but you get the idea. A friend has had a pro driver work on his setup with the DSC, and he is much happier with the car especially just driving down the road on the way home from the track. Rebound is the thing that they played with the most. Not sure exactly what they did, but I will figure it out when I get to that point.
A stock GT4 is 45/80 Nm on its springs, the first modification is 60/80 Nm, and then guys go to an 80/100 Nm track setup all on the stock GT4 shocks. The later being noted to being pretty stiff. As I said yesterday, if someone was that unhappy with their car, for about $400-500 you could try a Swift 90/120 Nm setup when you upgraded the camber plates. That way the labor costs for the work and alignment are really not a factor in the upgrade since you are doing the camber plates already. Then $1400 for the DSC and you are not out $10K. If it works and you are happy, then great and you save a bunch of money. Maybe a set of Surface Transforms rotors to take 46 pounds of unsprung weight off of the car to further address the problem. If you don't like it, then sell the parts to the next person to try it. If I had known all of this last year I would have likely gone with my OEM 100 fronts and softened the rears 10 Nm to 130 Nm to better balance the car to my liking.
If anyone can find out the spring rates of the SRS that would be great. I just looked at my 100 Nm OEM Bilstien springs and unfortunately there are no marking on them to indicate anything about their rate. If Porsche went right in the middle of the Spyder (45/80) and the 4RS (100/140) for the spring rates of the Spyder RS, it would be about 72.5/110. So maybe in reality it is around 70/100 to be a compromise between both cars. Who knows. This is pure speculation on my part, but gives us all some idea of the general rates that Porsche must have contemplated for the SRS.
I have not worked with such settings before, but it seems to me if we can soften the rear compression say 10% in medium and 20% in fast; that should allow the shocks to move upward more quickly with less resistance from the car's weight. Then under rebound maybe stiffen it per say 10% in medium and 20% on fast. That way the wheel would come back under more control and be less likely to bounce again. Not sure what the actual numbers would be, but you get the idea. A friend has had a pro driver work on his setup with the DSC, and he is much happier with the car especially just driving down the road on the way home from the track. Rebound is the thing that they played with the most. Not sure exactly what they did, but I will figure it out when I get to that point.
A stock GT4 is 45/80 Nm on its springs, the first modification is 60/80 Nm, and then guys go to an 80/100 Nm track setup all on the stock GT4 shocks. The later being noted to being pretty stiff. As I said yesterday, if someone was that unhappy with their car, for about $400-500 you could try a Swift 90/120 Nm setup when you upgraded the camber plates. That way the labor costs for the work and alignment are really not a factor in the upgrade since you are doing the camber plates already. Then $1400 for the DSC and you are not out $10K. If it works and you are happy, then great and you save a bunch of money. Maybe a set of Surface Transforms rotors to take 46 pounds of unsprung weight off of the car to further address the problem. If you don't like it, then sell the parts to the next person to try it. If I had known all of this last year I would have likely gone with my OEM 100 fronts and softened the rears 10 Nm to 130 Nm to better balance the car to my liking.
If anyone can find out the spring rates of the SRS that would be great. I just looked at my 100 Nm OEM Bilstien springs and unfortunately there are no marking on them to indicate anything about their rate. If Porsche went right in the middle of the Spyder (45/80) and the 4RS (100/140) for the spring rates of the Spyder RS, it would be about 72.5/110. So maybe in reality it is around 70/100 to be a compromise between both cars. Who knows. This is pure speculation on my part, but gives us all some idea of the general rates that Porsche must have contemplated for the SRS.
Last edited by lovetoturn; 05-15-2024 at 07:58 PM.
#1055
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 13,422
Likes: 4,606
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
This 4RS is the last of its kind, fairly expensive, and I think it will have collectable value in 5-10+ years if kept in good condition and doesn't accumulate many tens of thousands of miles. So I'm inclined to just do alignment and aero settings with this car, no mods. If I want to mod a car extensively to optimize it for the track, I'd rather do that with a less expensive and non-collectible car, or just buy an actual race car with full cage, etc. and trailer it. To me, modding the hell out of a 4RS just doesn't feel right. I paid for Porsche engineering, and that's what I want to experience.
The following 7 users liked this post by Manifold:
bk_911 (05-17-2024),
chriswd62 (05-16-2024),
Eric5280 (05-15-2024),
fasteddie99 (05-16-2024),
lovetoturn (05-15-2024),
and 2 others liked this post.
#1056
Cup 2s and as you say a major factor in cold AND wet conditions
Last edited by Taffy66; 05-15-2024 at 08:44 PM.
#1057
My car is an early 2024 delivered in September 2023 with bigger tires at 265/305 and ride height is about stock. Maybe it has revised shocks on it, I will look for a number next time I have a wheel off. The bigger rear tires with -3.0 camber and +14 min of toe on TPC offset rear toe links help to stabilize things relative to stock. Because of these things my thoughts and experiences may be a bit more positive than others. I am going to try the DCS box in the next few months ... maybe sooner rather than later after all of this. The DSC actually has slow, medium, and high speed settings for the front and rear of the dampers. You take you original shock setting and then add or subtract a percentage of that under each of these settings. If you use their setting it helps as reported, but I think and hope if one dives deeper into this, even more improvements could be had.
I have not worked with such settings before, but it seems to me if we can soften the rear compression say 10% in medium and 20% in fast; that should allow the shocks to move upward more quickly with less resistance from the car's weight. Then under rebound maybe stiffen it per say 10% in medium and 20% on fast. That way the wheel would come back under more control and be less likely to bounce again. Not sure what the actual numbers would be, but you get the idea. A friend has had a pro driver work on his setup with the DSC, and he is much happier with the car especially just driving down the road on the way home from the track. Rebound is the thing that they played with the most. Not sure exactly what they did, but I will figure it out when I get to that point.
A stock GT4 is 45/80 Nm on its springs, the first modification is 60/80 Nm, and then guys go to an 80/100 Nm track setup all on the stock GT4 shocks. The later being noted to being pretty stiff. As I said yesterday, if someone was that unhappy with their car, for about $400-500 you could try a Swift 90/120 Nm setup when you upgraded the camber plates. That way the labor costs for the work and alignment are really not a factor in the upgrade since you are doing the camber plates already. Then $1400 for the DSC and you are not out $10K. If it works and you are happy, then great and you save a bunch of money. Maybe a set of Surface Transforms rotors to take 46 pounds of unsprung weight off of the car to further address the problem. If you don't like it, then sell the parts to the next person to try it. If I had known all of this last year I would have likely gone with my OEM 100 fronts and softened the rears 10 Nm to 130 Nm to better balance the car to my liking.
If anyone can find out the spring rates of the SRS that would be great. I just looked at my 100 Nm OEM Bilstien springs and unfortunately there are no marking on them to indicate anything about their rate. If Porsche went right in the middle of the Spyder (45/80) and the 4RS (100/140) for the spring rates of the Spyder RS, it would be about 72.5/110. So maybe in reality it is around 70/100 to be a compromise between both cars. Who knows. This is pure speculation on my part, but gives us all some idea of the general rates that Porsche must have contemplated for the SRS.
I have not worked with such settings before, but it seems to me if we can soften the rear compression say 10% in medium and 20% in fast; that should allow the shocks to move upward more quickly with less resistance from the car's weight. Then under rebound maybe stiffen it per say 10% in medium and 20% on fast. That way the wheel would come back under more control and be less likely to bounce again. Not sure what the actual numbers would be, but you get the idea. A friend has had a pro driver work on his setup with the DSC, and he is much happier with the car especially just driving down the road on the way home from the track. Rebound is the thing that they played with the most. Not sure exactly what they did, but I will figure it out when I get to that point.
A stock GT4 is 45/80 Nm on its springs, the first modification is 60/80 Nm, and then guys go to an 80/100 Nm track setup all on the stock GT4 shocks. The later being noted to being pretty stiff. As I said yesterday, if someone was that unhappy with their car, for about $400-500 you could try a Swift 90/120 Nm setup when you upgraded the camber plates. That way the labor costs for the work and alignment are really not a factor in the upgrade since you are doing the camber plates already. Then $1400 for the DSC and you are not out $10K. If it works and you are happy, then great and you save a bunch of money. Maybe a set of Surface Transforms rotors to take 46 pounds of unsprung weight off of the car to further address the problem. If you don't like it, then sell the parts to the next person to try it. If I had known all of this last year I would have likely gone with my OEM 100 fronts and softened the rears 10 Nm to 130 Nm to better balance the car to my liking.
If anyone can find out the spring rates of the SRS that would be great. I just looked at my 100 Nm OEM Bilstien springs and unfortunately there are no marking on them to indicate anything about their rate. If Porsche went right in the middle of the Spyder (45/80) and the 4RS (100/140) for the spring rates of the Spyder RS, it would be about 72.5/110. So maybe in reality it is around 70/100 to be a compromise between both cars. Who knows. This is pure speculation on my part, but gives us all some idea of the general rates that Porsche must have contemplated for the SRS.
Autocar: "for the Spyder RS the spring rates have plummeted from 110Nm per millimetre to 45Nm at the front axle and 140Nm to 80Nm at the back."
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review.../718-spyder-rs
Car: "How much softer are the springs? Quite a bit – 55% at the front and 43% at the rear over the Cayman GT4 RS"
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-re...718-spyder-rs/
#1058
later in the day I made the car push a bit as I wanted a faster lap time. But at no point did i turn my wheel more to get even more scrubing !, that's a noob error and you just over heat and bend tyre treads backwards which I see quite often at tracks with people who don't know how to drive or control weight transfer.
The following users liked this post:
lovetoturn (05-16-2024)
#1059
Don't drive like that then ? that's a driver error. I never turn the wheel more if I am gettng under steer, i drive round it. on a oem geo I did not wear my tyre on the edge at all as I did not drive like that with increase steering angle ! . I waited an extra second to get on the power and fed it in slower.
later in the day I made the car push a bit as I wanted a faster lap time. But at no point did i turn my wheel more to get even more scrubing !, that's a noob error and you just over heat and bend tyre treads backwards which I see quite often at tracks with people who don't know how to drive or control weight transfer.
later in the day I made the car push a bit as I wanted a faster lap time. But at no point did i turn my wheel more to get even more scrubing !, that's a noob error and you just over heat and bend tyre treads backwards which I see quite often at tracks with people who don't know how to drive or control weight transfer.
I said in the same post that I am working on improving my control of throttle and brake to mitigate the wear. At no point was I blaming the car.
Additionally, I acknowledged my wear was exacerbated by my turning in too much on a particular corner or two. I enjoy tracking because learning and developing skill, speed, and smoothness is all part of the fun.
Last edited by KelvinC; 05-16-2024 at 05:16 AM.
The following 2 users liked this post by KelvinC:
lovetoturn (05-16-2024),
mrd_spy (05-16-2024)
#1061
I just took delivery of my 4RS on Monday and put 300 miles on it so far this week. I'm coming from a PDK 718 GT4 that had MCS 2-way remote canister suspension.
Here are some of my initial thoughts (understanding many of these observations have exhaustively been shared over the past 2 years or so):
Here are some of my initial thoughts (understanding many of these observations have exhaustively been shared over the past 2 years or so):
- It's firm, but not as firm as I expected based on some of the feedback on this forum and some youtubers/"journalist".
- Overall the suspension feels pretty good. I sometimes think that folks believe the suspension should be able to go from Cadillac smooth to race car stiff with the press of a button, but I don't believe that's the purpose of an RS car. I actually like that it's firm, even in its "softest" setting. It's an "in your face" experience and that's part of its appeal. With that being said, if you're purchasing the car to drive regularly on poorly paved/maintained roads, you may want to look elsewhere.
- The interior sound levels vary greatly depending on how much throttle. It goes from surprisingly civil during light throttle acceleration and highway cruising to OMG!! I haven't even gotten close to redline, but WOW, it's loud and visceral. I know it's been said many times before, but I honestly haven't experienced anything quite like it. Watching the videos don't do it justice. It must be experienced first hand.
- The gearing is dramatically tighter/better. Pulling out from a stop, it shifts lightning quick through the gears. It certainly adds to the feeling of engagement.
The following 5 users liked this post by Mr. Adair:
Eric5280 (05-16-2024),
RADONCulous (05-16-2024),
SB27 (05-16-2024),
tomcattmatt (05-16-2024),
TOporschefan (05-16-2024)
#1062
Looks like spring rates on the SRS are same as the Spyder's. Should compare the part numbers.
Autocar: "for the Spyder RS the spring rates have plummeted from 110Nm per millimetre to 45Nm at the front axle and 140Nm to 80Nm at the back."
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review.../718-spyder-rs
Car: "How much softer are the springs? Quite a bit – 55% at the front and 43% at the rear over the Cayman GT4 RS"
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-re...718-spyder-rs/
Autocar: "for the Spyder RS the spring rates have plummeted from 110Nm per millimetre to 45Nm at the front axle and 140Nm to 80Nm at the back."
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review.../718-spyder-rs
Car: "How much softer are the springs? Quite a bit – 55% at the front and 43% at the rear over the Cayman GT4 RS"
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-re...718-spyder-rs/
Last edited by Mr. Adair; 05-16-2024 at 08:40 AM.
The following users liked this post:
TOporschefan (05-16-2024)
#1063
What’s wrong with you? Why are you so aggro?
I said in the same post that I am working on improving my control of throttle and brake to mitigate the wear. At no point was I blaming the car.
Additionally, I acknowledged my wear was exacerbated by my turning in too much on a particular corner or two. I enjoy tracking because learning and developing skill, speed, and smoothness is all part of the fun.
I said in the same post that I am working on improving my control of throttle and brake to mitigate the wear. At no point was I blaming the car.
Additionally, I acknowledged my wear was exacerbated by my turning in too much on a particular corner or two. I enjoy tracking because learning and developing skill, speed, and smoothness is all part of the fun.
Last edited by mrd_spy; 05-16-2024 at 09:37 AM.
#1064
Are you coming to Dan's Anglesey track day on May 28th ?
#1065
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 13,422
Likes: 4,606
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
It was very dicey indeed. Great way to cook the rear brakes with ESP and TC constantly working overtime. The two extremes between a 992TTS on MP4Ss and a 4RS On Cup 2s when a track was like an ice rink was quite an eye opener.
Are you coming to Dan's Anglesey track day on May 28th ?
Are you coming to Dan's Anglesey track day on May 28th ?