Jesus, what has this thread turned into?

It's like I went for seconds at Thanksgiving dinner to come back to the table and my brother and uncle are fighting over the moon landing.

 

Let's see if we can get this thread back on track, it's had a good run for a long time now, but if it keeps spiraling down OT / P&C directions we'll have to close it.

Thank you....

 

Please close it - its an awful thread and the the whole underpinning of it is rotten to the core.

You have to recognise the whole drive of Tesla, in a nustsheell, was saving the planet through electric vehicles. If you understand the science you know this is nonsense. No meaningful debate over the use and development of these vehicles can ignore that and the reality that the planet has been warming for 10,000 years and has some way to go yet. This is a matter of hard science not conspiracy theory or politics.

You may be able to cancel a post but you can't cancel science or stop a warming cycle. Of course, you could try the Canutian approach, irrespective of what you do the ending will be the same.

So please close the thread, it has zero relevance in a Porsche forum and there are literally hundreds of posts by 4 or 5 posters that say the same thing over and over, albeit in slightly different ways. Thank you and good night.

 

Not only that (though the "Tesla Existential Threat" related stuff is fine IMO). But Elon and Tesla can't save the world environmentally with electric cars, which have their own manufacturing and disposal issues. So, they help on one end, hurt on another.

And though they have better emissions than gasoline vehicles, yes. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of air pollutants come from various large factories, more so than individual cars. Science knows this. So the benefits are relatively benign in a vacuum, though I support, and are not disparaging electric vehicles. They have their place, on both a performance and emissions level or standard. But more needs to be done elsewhere.

Lastly, Elon pushing thousands of satellites into orbit.blanketing the planet as he's allegedly supposed to do.... This will not help the environment, particularly all that 5G at 60 ghz. Nonetheless, many of his more besmitten fans (not necessarily here), want to call him an environmental hero. SMH

So, I agree with other posters. Let's keep it to cars/the spirit of the thread mostly. But I wouldn't necessarily agree in shutting it down. But we'll see?

 

Tesla driver was asleep while car was doing over 90 mph

 

To wit...

 

I am starting to take umbrage with these articles regarding people mis-using auto pilot. Not just from you but in general. Why?

Because the ENTIRE car industry is pushing the message that the "car will save you". You don't have to pay attention any more.

It's not just Tesla. I'd be willing to bet that every single automaker (I haven't actually correlated all the ads to each manufacturer, but it is a lot of them) has an ad showing their advanced safety systems "saving the driver".

I get very angry when I see all these "whew, that was close" commercials on TV with the driver (usually female to further the stereotype, but not always" being bailed out by the car. I think one of the earliest ones was from cross traffic alert systems showing a family backing out of a blind driveway (dad driving this time) and a teen on a bike coming down the sidewalk. I think if I'm not mistaken, that was Infiniti. No big deal, but over time, the commercials have gone from "we make you safer" to "don't worry about paying attention, we'll bail you out". Now we have commercials showing people doing all sorts of stupid distracted driving, like chatting with their friends, using the phone, etc. and showing the car bailing them out time and time again.

At least the Allstate mayhem commercial where the guy is fumbling for his phone under the seat and rear ends a car stopped at the light is honest.

 

Duly noted, and it's staying open. There is no stopping the comparison between Porsches EV and Tesla, if anything this thread serves as a bulk repository for such chatter instead of many new threads that will no doubt pop up or invading other conversations.

Don't like this thread, fine, don't open it. That's the amazing thing about freedom, you are free to not participate in this discussion! I know, crazy idea.....it might just work, give it a try!

If you want to carry on about the environment, conspiracies etc..... do it here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/politics...ntroversy-212/

This isn't open for debate, this isn't a democracy. If you are not capable of talking about Porsche EV's and Tesla without the P&C chatter, then don't post in this thread. Nobody is forcing you to participate.

My God, we were taught these lessons in Kindergarten.

On that note, moderating this place is a team effort that includes all users. The mod team is a small group of un-paid volunteers who were asked to help, and we need everyone's help. If you feel a post or member is out of line, don't engage them, report the post. That sends a message to all the moderators, we cannot possibly read every single post.

Again, thank you.

 

Yes.

Despite all the new technology and ads present. We have a bunch of uneducated drivers on the road (such as this 20 yr old chap in the Tesla) who believe the "hype" and not the reality of the available tech. A lot of it are ads, and manufacturer misrepresentation as you said. However, many of us (especially of a certain age) appears to be so vacuous and smitten with such ads we lose all common sense.

 

It is not about the uneducated. It is about human psyche, well researched and I wrote about this couple of times here. I quoted this from Elon, but will do it again.

“One of the common misimpressions is that when there is, say, a serious accident on Autopilot, people for some reason think that –- or some of the articles think that it’s because the driver thought the car was fully autonomous and it wasn’t, and we somehow misled them into thinking it was fully autonomous,” Musk told investors. “It is the opposite case. When there is a serious accident, almost always –- in fact, maybe always, the case that it is an experienced user and the issue is more one of complacency. Like, they get too used to it.”



The Apple engineer who died on 101 told the family earlier that the car sometimes wants to drive into the gore in that same location.

yet the accident happened. just think about that for a bit

https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/...topilot-system

 

When I say "uneducated": I'm not speaking in general, such as he/she went to college. I'm speaking of knowing/researching/understanding the tech and lingo. A lot of us, are a lot lazier today than we were 30,+30+ years ago (especially under 40 years old), regardless of our education level. It's conditioning, due to a multiplicity of factors. So, when someone hears "AutoPilot", they don't understand it's a level 2 system. Cause if they did (and you feel they're just plain flouting it): why in the world would they sleep, or lay horizontal to not see the road in a car traveling at that speed?.....That's just Bat ****z crazy IMO!

And if he's a Tesla Acolyte. Then, you can just multiply what I said by (maybe) several factors!?

 

And yet he continued to use it in that location? And paid insufficient attention that he was in a position for the crash to happen?

Sheesh. That's just not smart.

Not saying there aren't issues with Autopilot. Quite the contrary. I know this, and this causes me to NOT rely on the system to drive to where I have zero attention. In areas where I know the computer gets stumped, I simply don't use it.

 

Yes it does sound that the drivers were incredibly stupid. But the answer isn't that simple.

Elon Musk is just as responsible for these accidents as the driver. It's just our law and people aren't keeping up with physiological studies. These machines are incompatible with humans. That simple.


Why Wasn't Uber Charged in a Fatal Self-Driving Car Crash?

“Safety starts at the top,” NTSB chair Robert Sumwalt said. “The collision was the last link of a long chain of actions and decisions made by an organization that unfortunately did not make safety the top priority.” Among the culprits: Vasquez and Uber self-driving execs, who created what the NTSB called an “inadequate safety culture.”

"Vasquez did not react in time. Maybe that’s not surprising: For decades, research has shown that it’s very, very difficult to keep human attention focused on partially automated tasks. Initial hearings in Vasquez’s case are set for next month."


The Unavoidable Folly of Making Humans Train Self-Driving Cars

The British Royal Air Force had a problem. It was 1943, and the Brits were using radar equipment to spot German submarines sneaking around off the western coast of France. The young men sitting in planes circling over the Bay of Biscay had more than enough motivation to keep a watchful eye for the telltale blips on the screens in front of them. Yet they had a worrying tendency to miss the signals they’d been trained to spot. The longer they spent looking at the screen, the less reliable they became.

it took less than half an hour for their attention to wander.

 

All right. Just my 2 ¢. It appears to me, that this former real "Tesla existential threat?"-thread some time ago has turned into a more or less anti-Tesla blog without added value. I'm aware, this thread probably generates an enormous amount of clicks, which is good for the ads. Nevertheless it wouldn't bother me, if this thread was closed. I doubt, there is much need for rennlist.com to provide an anti-Tesla Blog, even if it's generating many clicks.

 

As a Tesla owner, I personally think self-driving is a solution looking for a problem. I didn't purchase the self-driving option for two reasons:

1.) I like driving for the most part. I do miss driving a manual transmission at times but I realize that doesn't make much sense with an electric drivetrain.

2.) Auto-Pilot (for me) in its current state is like watching a 16 year old drive with their learner's permit. It does alright most of the time but occasionally you have to take over. If I have to watch the car with a close eye, it's easier if i just do everything myself. I hear of people who swear by self-driving assistance (especially in traffic) but maybe I'm too old to change.