Calling all SpecBoxers...
02-26-2012 | 07:07 PM
#241
Pro
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 651
Likes: 5
Personally, I agree with you Eric, but I'm picking my battles carefully, the current rules are stock ECU.
Your point of who knows what is in the ECU is valid, but that CAN be checked, and also that really wasn't the purpose of you changing your ECU to begin with.
Truth is that those that want to cheat via an ECU will do it thru the ECU or externally, the rules really don't matter. Better to spec the gas, and plugs, do the ECU also if you must, then test the gas and check the plugs. If you don't have proper fuel, timing, and spark an ECU won't help but a couple hp at best.
The immobilizer is a whole new issue but also not a battle worth fighting for me, or maybe I should say not a battle worth fracturing the class into different groups over, IMHO.
Your point of who knows what is in the ECU is valid, but that CAN be checked, and also that really wasn't the purpose of you changing your ECU to begin with.
Truth is that those that want to cheat via an ECU will do it thru the ECU or externally, the rules really don't matter. Better to spec the gas, and plugs, do the ECU also if you must, then test the gas and check the plugs. If you don't have proper fuel, timing, and spark an ECU won't help but a couple hp at best.
The immobilizer is a whole new issue but also not a battle worth fighting for me, or maybe I should say not a battle worth fracturing the class into different groups over, IMHO.
02-26-2012 | 07:16 PM
#242
Pro
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 651
Likes: 5
Well, most all of our cars are running straight pipes without mufflers or cats, and have the rear oxygen sensors out of the exhaust stream so it is not a 100% stock condition. Those items will certainly change the air/fuel ratio.
02-26-2012 | 07:22 PM
#243
Pro
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 651
Likes: 5
Eric,
Agreed that if it is a reflash that does not involve opening the ecu case it can ily be read electronically. Swapping out chips however is pretty simple the swedges on the case have to be pried open. To be honest I have not looked at the boxsters box in detail but on my other cars Bosch puts at least one tag over the seam. On the cup car (mines an 00) there is one paper seal over the seam and another inspection seal over the pin connector. Obviously that's the way the factory monitors it.
I can show you the factory seals on the cup car ecu.
Agreed that if it is a reflash that does not involve opening the ecu case it can ily be read electronically. Swapping out chips however is pretty simple the swedges on the case have to be pried open. To be honest I have not looked at the boxsters box in detail but on my other cars Bosch puts at least one tag over the seam. On the cup car (mines an 00) there is one paper seal over the seam and another inspection seal over the pin connector. Obviously that's the way the factory monitors it.
I can show you the factory seals on the cup car ecu.
These '97-'99 cars are different than the rest of the modern Porsche cars as they can not be ''reflashed''. They MUST be chipped. They come with no factory seals on them, or tape of any kind. If you do the research, you will find that there are a select few individuals that can work on, chip, tune, or read these ECU's. The 2000- cars are very easy to work on, flash, tune, and read.
02-26-2012 | 07:46 PM
#244
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 163
Likes: 33
From: San Francisco, CA
Allowing ECU mods just seems like opening a can of worms. Has it ever been a real issue, other than the immobilizer thing on the two HRG cars? It may work for POC as a way to easily declare a specific existing car legal (the pink HRG car, as Eric's car is moving to another class anyway), but I don't think it's a good change in the general Spec Boxster rules just to accomplish that.
02-26-2012 | 11:27 PM
#245
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,549
Likes: 2
From: Texas
There are ways of adding more air and fuel to the cars if you know what to do. Add both and, well, it is just a simple air pump so you do the math on what happens.
02-26-2012 | 11:33 PM
#246
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,549
Likes: 2
From: Texas
Oh I hear you. I'm not recommending it as a battle worth fighting on your end or situation. With the resources in our group, we CAN'T check them. So if we can't check them, what difference does having the rule make. At least opening it up makes it possible for those with good morals the possibility to equal those with lesser ones. Again, we're looking at a couple HP at best and making it less of an issue than it is now.
It seems the majority prefer the stock unaltered ECU box rule so I am guessing that will be what NASA will come back as a proposed rule set, but who knows.
Remember that they are trying to keep the rule set as much the same as possible with any changes being little to no cost and very easy changes so racers will be able to race with multiple sanctioning bodies (PCA,NASA, POC, PBOC,SCCA, etc etc)
02-27-2012 | 12:38 PM
#247
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 113
Likes: 5
From: Minnesota
My .02 on the ECU issue. My big concern is moisture. Last summer we drove through a torrential downpour on our way to Road America. The whole time I was thinking about the immobilizer ECU, still in its stock location under the seat. Given that we don’t have windows, I was thinking how nice it would be to not have that ECU. Of course, I could buy a closed trailer, or have a custom cover fabricated that can withstand the buffeting of towing. Either way I’m spending a bunch of money on (for me) non-value add items.
Except for the immobilizer, my car is pretty rain proof. It would be nice if there was an approved way to address this.
Michael
Except for the immobilizer, my car is pretty rain proof. It would be nice if there was an approved way to address this.
Michael
02-27-2012 | 12:43 PM
#248
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,587
Likes: 12
From: Texas
My .02 on the ECU issue. My big concern is moisture. Last summer we drove through a torrential downpour on our way to Road America. The whole time I was thinking about the immobilizer ECU, still in its stock location under the seat. Given that we don’t have windows, I was thinking how nice it would be to not have that ECU. Of course, I could buy a closed trailer, or have a custom cover fabricated that can withstand the buffeting of towing. Either way I’m spending a bunch of money on (for me) non-value add items.
Except for the immobilizer, my car is pretty rain proof. It would be nice if there was an approved way to address this.
Michael
Except for the immobilizer, my car is pretty rain proof. It would be nice if there was an approved way to address this.
Michael
02-27-2012 | 02:32 PM
#249
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,549
Likes: 2
From: Texas
My .02 on the ECU issue. My big concern is moisture. Last summer we drove through a torrential downpour on our way to Road America. The whole time I was thinking about the immobilizer ECU, still in its stock location under the seat. Given that we don’t have windows, I was thinking how nice it would be to not have that ECU. Of course, I could buy a closed trailer, or have a custom cover fabricated that can withstand the buffeting of towing. Either way I’m spending a bunch of money on (for me) non-value add items.
Except for the immobilizer, my car is pretty rain proof. It would be nice if there was an approved way to address this.
Michael
Except for the immobilizer, my car is pretty rain proof. It would be nice if there was an approved way to address this.
Michael
Any one of the 3 addresses your concern, do all of them and you are very well taken care of.
Not to mention you then have a car you can race or resell someday to someone that wants to race in any of the groups with a legal car.
Just my thoughts.
02-29-2012 | 01:48 AM
#250
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,945
Likes: 5
From: Northern Virginia
Draft of NASA 2012 Spec Boxster Rules is posted here..
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic....350359#p350359
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic....350359#p350359
02-29-2012 | 02:38 AM
#251
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,549
Likes: 2
From: Texas
At NASA Nationals with 30+ cars, TOYO pays $4000 CASH to the winner, $3000 to 2nd, $2000 to 3rd, $1000 to 4th, $750 to 5th. Now there is some incentive to go to NASA Nationals !
http://www.nasaproracing.com/conting...ency_Info2.pdf
http://www.nasaproracing.com/conting...ency_Info2.pdf
03-01-2012 | 01:49 PM
#253
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,945
Likes: 5
From: Northern Virginia
Revision #4 to the NASA SPB 2012 Rules are posted at...
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=55260
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=55260
