Sir5n

Yup…OP:

I had a similar experience with the club during 2 events after 4 years of lapping with other organizations and many paid instructors. The first PCA instructor was fantastic. We clicked and shared a couple days on a new track to me and newish to him. Lots of fun and learning for both of us.

The second time was at my home track and the PCA 'instructor' was a twit. Get this quote: "get right on him so he knows you're here" How's that for a green group passing instruction with a 911 driver that is determined to keep a faster Boxster from passing. Two day event and I didn't return for the second.

50/50 results. I don't do PCA events due to that and it's a lot of standing around for a few 30 minute attitude fuelled train sessions. Waste of my time actually.

Try other organizations or regions and keep doing what you enjoy. BTW, I prefer to drive my own car even when the exercise calls for me to drive the students car but that's race school not a DE lapping session. Just weird how that guy blew your session…one or two 6/10th demo laps but jeez.

ProCoach

From an article on the Track Wisdom page of my site:

When I describe "tenths,” or the system of assigning a relative speed, level of concentration or demonstration of car physics on-track to someone, it usually follows these definitions.

3/10 is driving on a flat, straight and level road with no distractions.

4/10 is driving on a gently curving Interstate with low traffic density at a higher rate of speed than at 3/10.

5/10 is driving quickly, but efficiently and at the speed limit on the street, more concentration required due to more "hazards" present.

6/10 is a standard DE lap or an out lap early on in a race weekend, for me. The purpose may be to re-familiarize myself with the race track, enjoy a relaxed lap or just "cruise" around and, in particular, designed to take NOTHING out of the car. This is also the level of driving quickly on the Interstate with a fair bit of traffic at higher speeds.

7/10 is a more aggressive DE level, designed to begin to "move the car around" and just a little more taxing on the car. Also, 7/10 can be an out lap later on in a race weekend, usually the result of greater confidence and familiarity. Relatively wide variation in lap time depending on traffic and concentration.

8/10 is an easily sustained level, requiring high levels of concentration, generally attained after the first few laps of a race or enduro when the dust settles and you slide into driving quickly and accurately, but are not locked in a battle that is external to you and your car. The car is sliding, but only at the beginning or the end of a corner and not at all corners and not on all laps. Generally laps are within .8-1.5 seconds apart and relatively consistent. This is the level I am most comfortable taking people around the track. Plenty of "headroom" and margin for error or changeable track conditions.

9/10 is driving pretty hard, but is sustainable, repeatable and the driver is still relatively accurate in their placement of the car. The car is now sliding much of the time, the driver is focused on catching someone or staying ahead of someone but is maintaining control and discipline of their own mind and of the car. At this point, the driver is using most of the width of the road, but not much curbing, and is focusing on drawing large arcs with the path of the car. The rhythm is such that the lap times are generally within .2 -.8 seconds apart, barring traffic or mistakes. This is my limit for one or two "hot laps" with someone riding with me.

9.5/10 is driving hard. More sliding, slightly quicker laps still than at 9/10. Less margin for error, a lot more work being done by the car. The driver is now "guiding" the car on a path selected well in advance. The car is sliding from turn-in, through the apex and is using the entire width of the paved track, plus the inside curbs. Cannot generally be sustained for more than five or six laps. I would not drive a car at this level with a passenger in it...

10/10 is when the skill level of a substantially experienced and supremely confident driver meets the competence level of the car nearly perfectly. The car is sliding nearly the entire lap. Slip angles of 7-12 degrees (DOT radials, less on radial slicks) are sustained through the entire length of most of the corners. The entire width of the road, plus the inside and outside (if available) curbing or pavement extensions are used, every corner, every lap. The previous lap is at 9 or 9.5/10 so that the "hot" lap is started at the greatest possible speed and with the highest possible concentration.

Typically, I drive 10/10's for one or two qualifying laps and my first few laps of the race to build a "gap" to the rest of the competition. I also drive 10/10's to experiment with changes made to the car or to evaluate tires in practice, not to mention putting in a "flyer" to achieve the psychological advantage of being on or near the top of the time sheet .

I may not drive 10/10’s more than a few laps during the weekend, but I pick and choose the time to do it. I feel like the car and I are balanced on a tightrope and I am constantly making tiny little corrections to adjust it's trajectory, with each correction making a difference... I'm not sure this level can be sustained more than two or three laps at a time. In order to be successful at the highest level of most organized competition, you must be able to drive at this level.

11/10's is when your talent runs out!

GT3DE

9/10 is outlap.
9.5/10 is cruising. More than a couple of these laps and start to get bored.
10/10 life begins.

jsabatini

Just want to add one thing, seems like your biggest problem was with instructor #3 at Winterfest. Winterfest is PBOC and not PCA. The National PCA Instructor Training program was based on the Suncoast and Goldcoast PCA Instructor Training program years ago and we have some damn good instructors so while this guy might have been PCA trained, he is definitely not typical. I would say he is not typical for any instructor group.

schaibaa

Admittedly I don't follow exactly what you're saying in the second half of this, but all of my instructors have encouraged me to be closer to the rear of someone as a way to suggest that they let me pass. I didn't find this aggressive, it's just a way to let people know.

LuigiVampa

I'm pretty sure that up until your comments it was a respectful debate. I didn't take any issue with those who disagree with my position because that's what a debate is.

Welcome to RL!

PS - to paraphrase the Donald my hands are pretty big!

NYC993

+1 part of learning to do this. Even better, you want to time your approach right. Stay back, and then come out of the turn faster closing the gap so you have momentum coming onto the straight to overtake a more powerful car.

Coochas

So Peter, when people tell me they want me to give 110%, are they asking me to crash? Hehehe.

ProCoach

Hahaha! Nope, they're asking you, in the words of Ross Bentley, to "become comfortable being (slightly) uncomfortable."

This is the hardest part about improving. Most folks aren't well calibrated enough to KNOW what percent or tenth-of-a-tenth they are at any given time, so they often make too big a jump with the same timing and amplitude as they used when going slower. That gets them into trouble.

One of the ways to calibrate is to study consistency. More consistency (often) means better ABILITY to gain an accurate calibration. It's complicated, and too long to talk about here...

golfnutintib

thanks peter - this is really helpful calibration... we all use the term 10/10's too loosely i think

interesting point... given how i see PCA in my area qualify and screen instructors, op's experience with that guy really surprised me

you are right luigi - i'm guilty as charged...

this is why there is no substitute for seat time...

cheers to all...

ShakeNBake

This is turning a bit better than usual,....must be Mr. Bort being on the sidelines.

TXE36

^^^^ His sabbatical is over. I've been seeing his one-liner posts for about the last 24 hours.

-Mike

ShakeNBake

Oh shoot. Nevermind then.

grrrmonster

Lively discussions. Seek out another instructor. One with a passion for instructing. They're at every event. Ask the chief instructor or classroom instructor.

Yes there is a lot of variation in those in the instructor corps- we're l volunteers at PCA events. You'll find differences in how different regions run events. I've been instructing for 29 years now- trust me there are some regions I just won't run with anymore.

Some great points being made- but remember s DE event is about learning and having fun. Not lap times or speed. Always a great suggestion to discuss with instructor the GOS for the weekend.

I'm amazed that some instructors want to drive a students car. I sure don't. Been offered some dream vehicles- but I do t want to be behind the wheel when an IMS bearing lets go, a meteorite falls out of the sky and hits the hood, or some other application of Murphys Law. I just don't want the awkward conversation afterwards.

And I've been on track driving front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, all wheel drive, front engine, rear engine, mid engine, blown engine, red cars and yellow cars. Big HP and next to no HP. I can help a student improve his skills and become s better driver. Virtually every student I've ever had ( including a couple pro drivers) had something you could help them with.

Regarding how many "tenths"- I've found the nut behind the wheel was the most limiting factor. 7/10ths of a drivers ability is a good zone to work in- and then improve what that 7/10ths is. Most every car is more capable than its driver, particularly with the cars that have produced over the last several years.

I'd urge you to become a student of the craft, and learn as much as you can.

Would love to have you at one of the regions up north for an event to contrast your recent experience. FWIW I'm part of the Allegheny Region. I can also vouch for great events run by NORPCA, MORPCA and OVRPCA

All the best

ProCoach

Agreed. While it can be useful to "recalibrate" your student butt by riding with an instructor in their car (to learn what may be possible and see in practice some complex and integrated concepts executed, with varying degrees of success ), I don't see a reason for an instructor to drive a student's car. And as a student (or fellow racer), I would think long and hard before allowing somebody else to drive MY car... Seen too many negative outcomes without correlating positive ones... Slow, touring speed drive-arounds, ok. At speed, not ok, except for folks like TX Mike who wanted to ride with Andy Lally driving his own car.

Many years ago, I drove 250 GT Competition Ferraris, 910 Porsches, Aston Martin DB4 GTs and all kinds of unobtanium. But a wise mentor of mine told me to treat those cars like a gun, because "if they went off, I would wish I were dead." Never forgot that.

You hit the nail on the head with the latter point. There is NO car that cannot be driven quicker by someone else. Period. That means, for the most part, tenths are a personal and variable yardstick, developed over years and after accumulating significant amounts of experience.

The concept of 10/10ths (as I describe it) by a newbie driver can be shattered in one fell swoop with a ride in a competent and capable instructor's passenger seat. And the concept of 10/10ths by an experienced instructor with decades of experience can be shattered by seeing or riding with a top-level pro. But the key is that the top level pro made that same progression... All drivers bleed red... Meaning drivers who make the commitment to learning, access the available resources, and practice, practice, practice, can fly very high.

My entire business is built around equipping drivers with knowledge, background and easily actionable strategy to execute fundamental skills, better than they think possible... In this way, their initial range of tenths expands UPWARDS and FORWARDS, with larger and more easily definable differentials between each tenth, influenced by progressively finer and finer control inputs and progressively greater and longer duration "unsticking" of the car.

But you have to walk before you run, which entails laying a firm foundation of skills and knowledge that can be built on throughout your on-track career, whether it is as an avocation or a vocation.

Good discussion!