DE Safety
02-17-2014, 07:05 AM
#16
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This happened to me in Bishops Bend a few years ago. I was run off the track to the right at the entrance to BB. It didn't take long for Karma to strike that guy because as I came through 15, I noted the Ferrari was off track to the left on fire.
02-17-2014, 10:15 AM
#17
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What he said x3 Rich Sandor - "Regardless of rules and procedures, the #1 thing that determines event safety is the attitude of the drivers. It is the responsibilty of the organisers to ensure everyone is starting the event with the right attitude. I always say: its not a race, there are no f1 scouts here, and you do not have insurance coverage if you wreck. That usually gets everyone in the right mindset. " I see more of the incidents then anyone all over the country . 1) cars are to fast for drivers skills. Learning curve way to steep with todays cars. 2) Instructors that need instructors themselves - we have lots of accidents with instructors in the car - should almost never happen 3) Clubs that allow individuals to move up in class way before they are ready. 4) Its usually lack of basics that causes accident. a) too fast for turn and/ or conditions (rain) with a bad line to begin with b) turning in early dropping a wheel or wheels on exit c) car not really properly prepped before going out on track Safety all starts with proper instructors setting good examples. I cant tell you how many event I go to with all types of clubs and an instructor doesnt or can't even follow the right line. Even if they are in there own sessions they should be setting an example and helping those that are getting something wrong. I have and do tell others even that I race against how to better there lines. I don't care if its DE or racing it all starts with the basics you cant cheat on the basics.
One of the most troubling sources of crashes is mentioned several times in this thread - the very fast, capable newer cars. It is critical that chief instructors carefully match instructors to these cars.
And that the drivers of these cars not get promoted until they are ready to handle them (which is true of all cars and promotions, but seems especially so for the cars that may be masking a less competent driver. When the red mist takes over, we need to be sure the driver is ready).
Ironic isn't it that the more capable cars may need extra care?
02-17-2014, 10:44 AM
#18
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What are the thoughts, from a safety perspective, regarding turning off stability control in the newer cars when on the track? Some arguments I've heard both ways:
- It'll mask student mistakes and foster bad habits, so students should have it off. Otherwise, when the same students are eventually solo and faster, turning off stability control could lead to trouble.
- Unless it's very intrusive, it should be left on, since it's a safety feature (though I know of cars spinning despite the stability control being on, including a case where stability control in a Porsche might have contributed to an incident because it's programming wasn't smart enough to deal with the situation - curve, bumpy track, mud).
- Advanced drivers can turn it off, since it slows the car down (although it's claimed that the PSM in the current Porsches is calibrated so that it doesn't slow the car down if the car is driven well).
- It'll mask student mistakes and foster bad habits, so students should have it off. Otherwise, when the same students are eventually solo and faster, turning off stability control could lead to trouble.
- Unless it's very intrusive, it should be left on, since it's a safety feature (though I know of cars spinning despite the stability control being on, including a case where stability control in a Porsche might have contributed to an incident because it's programming wasn't smart enough to deal with the situation - curve, bumpy track, mud).
- Advanced drivers can turn it off, since it slows the car down (although it's claimed that the PSM in the current Porsches is calibrated so that it doesn't slow the car down if the car is driven well).
02-17-2014, 03:04 PM
#19
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Regardless of rules and procedures, the #1 thing that determines event safety is the attitude of the drivers. It is the responsibilty of the organisers to ensure everyone is starting the event with the right attitude. I always say: its not a race, there are no f1 scouts here, and you do not have insurance coverage if you wreck. That usually gets everyone in the right mindset.
And this ^^^ If you can't give a point-by on the straights, and you belong in the beginner run group for a while before we advise you to take up golf.
02-17-2014, 03:35 PM
#20
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Attitude +993
The car is not a toy. Don't kill the instructors. Don't kill others. Don't kill yourself. Take the car home at the end of the day.
Agree that new cars with all the gizmos, horsepower, and good tires are dangerous re. the pace the cars are capable of (seldom the driver).
A lot of DE days would be safer with a fleet of Spec Miatas or 944s available.
I usually point by with two hands and steer with caster.
The car is not a toy. Don't kill the instructors. Don't kill others. Don't kill yourself. Take the car home at the end of the day.
Agree that new cars with all the gizmos, horsepower, and good tires are dangerous re. the pace the cars are capable of (seldom the driver).
A lot of DE days would be safer with a fleet of Spec Miatas or 944s available.
I usually point by with two hands and steer with caster.
02-17-2014, 04:10 PM
#21
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[QUOTE=mglobe;11142156]Can you point to incidents where having the windows closed was safer? Yeah I guess something could come in the car, but have you seen this happen? I've seen two incidents where street cars went up in flames, and in both cases, driver and instructor bailed out the windows. If their windows had been closed they might not be with us now. It's not easy to find a hammer to break the window when you've got flames and smoke around you. QUOTE]
Almost every crash or spin.
I have not seen a car on fire in a DE, let alone not being able to get out, but Sean Edwards tragic incident it happened. Open windows or not would have not made a difference.
I base this on what the car manufacturers think is safer (They lock doors, close everything, etc. etc.) so even if you make someone drive with the windows open they might be closed by the time they are done crashing.
European tracks require windows closed.
Anytime I'm crashing I want everything closed, crap flies in, arms fly out, remember DE cars have no window nets.
I mean, give hammers to track workers and rescue workers.
If I can break a window, I bet I'm still able to get out of the car as well.
Almost every crash or spin.
I have not seen a car on fire in a DE, let alone not being able to get out, but Sean Edwards tragic incident it happened. Open windows or not would have not made a difference.
I base this on what the car manufacturers think is safer (They lock doors, close everything, etc. etc.) so even if you make someone drive with the windows open they might be closed by the time they are done crashing.
European tracks require windows closed.
Anytime I'm crashing I want everything closed, crap flies in, arms fly out, remember DE cars have no window nets.
I mean, give hammers to track workers and rescue workers.
If I can break a window, I bet I'm still able to get out of the car as well.
02-17-2014, 05:16 PM
#24
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I can't use my blinkers because I sawed off the lever, used to hit it and the wipers all the time.. even if I could use them I would just leave them blinking for lap after lap, just like I do on the street.
02-17-2014, 05:17 PM
#25
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I agree! Here in Florida the biggest safety benefit is running with the A/C cranked ice cold.
I ran with PCA Nord at Road America (Awesome group) the summer of 2011 and 2012 and we ran with the windows closed, I could see my own breath and loved it, so nice and comfy on a 85F day!
Here in Florida PBOC stepped away from making us wear race suits as we were passing out from the heat and hum, less than peak physical condition.
Windows closed seems than a double safe solution!
02-17-2014, 06:06 PM
#26
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LOL, very rarely. I agree! Here in Florida the biggest safety benefit is running with the A/C cranked ice cold. I ran with PCA Nord at Road America (Awesome group) the summer of 2011 and 2012 and we ran with the windows closed, I could see my own breath and loved it, so nice and comfy on a 85F day! Here in Florida PBOC stepped away from making us wear race suits as we were passing out from the heat and hum, less than peak physical condition. Windows closed seems than a double safe solution!
02-17-2014, 06:55 PM
#29
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I think overall PCA DE rules work well. As far as run groups.....from what I see White seems to be the most troublesome. Lot of guys in fast cars that get moved up quicker than they probably should.
02-17-2014, 07:44 PM
#30
Race Car
