NaroEscape

Can't get to the rules today, site is locked up...

rmag

I was one of the people who submitted the rules change for ABS. I get Ice pedal, and it is flat out dangerous and scary. Their solution for it is brake differently. I do. I can prevent Ice pedal from happening 95% of the time. But what about those other 5%. Going to 20% braking force under threshold braking is unnerving. Not to mention that, what is a drivers initial reaction when getting chopped or needing heavy brake....to hit them HARD instead of easing into them. That's when this is most prone to happen. I've had a few instances where I've braced for impact because I got chopped, I hit the brakes hard, and Ice Pedal ensued. This widely know issue that has been brought up in the CR newsletter many times. In 2009 they made the rules change to basically allow any brake unit to solve the issue. In 2010 it got reversed and made a prepared change as they looked into solution to box in the prior rules change. What I proposed was boxed in!

I agree, race ABS would probably be an advantage over a stock ABS system. However, what I proposed was a STREET BMW unit, not a motorsports unit. In Grand Am, they determined the cars we dangerous and did a mid year change to allow aftermarket ABS. The guy who designed that Motorsport system (about $15k) included basically everything. We tested a low end system he made. It included:

BMW street ABS Pump, BMW street ABS computer, small wiring harness, and 4 brake line hookups.

To Install:
1) Remove Porsche ABS Pump
2) Install BMW pump using 4 connector to distribution block, and stock connectors to Master Cylinder
3) Wire Ground, wire power, piggyback 4 wheel sensor wires to new abs harness
4) Bleed brakes

We tested this system for him. Took a couple hours to install, and even less time to remove. Can take pics of the system or get part #'s if anyone interested (race shop I use stil lhas the unit). All I can say is it works! It's no MOTORSPORTS ABS, but you don't get Ice Pedal. I hammered the brakes in all kinds of situations and never went into Ice Mode. It did however function like a street ABS. When pushing it to hard (as I tried to do), it would lose braking power. But different from Porsche 's. What you felt was, you were just asking to much of the system, and you lost braking power proportionally and predictably. Unlike the Porsche ABS where it gets "confused" and you lose basically all braking force at unpredictable times.

Since we were just testing, don't know precise cost, but It sure isn't $10-15k. I believe it will be less than $3k. Street prices for ABS Pump and Brain (since they are stock BMW street units) I think are about $2k, then just need the custom wire harness and 4 brake line connectors. Hell, the system is cheaper than the stock porsche street unit which is about $4k! h

I can't see how putting in a different STREET ABS would be considered a competitive advantage. Not sure why the rules committee thought the unit I proposed was a motorsports unit. The way they worded it I can see how they would want to make it a prepared change.

My proposed change is:
1) Allow aftermarket street abs available in a production street car (or even further limit it to a street BMW ABS)
2) Must maintain existing stock master cylinder, vacuum, and wheel sensors

rmag

Actually, when at Sebring, and brakes were really acting up, we tried that. Got ABS turned off. Brakes became an on/off switch. Barely touched the brake pedal, and they locked up. Came in after just trying to survive one lap.

Paul 996

Ryan,

PCA didn't spell out the Continental Teves MK6 system based on the BMW E46 street ABS. I am cool with that scenario but PCA needs to clarify the heck out of it.

I am still against full race ABS systems like the BMW Motorsports ABS or Bosch Motorsports ABS, 1 the price point and two the capabilities seriously surpass any street ABS system.

I had no idea that you had such issues merely defeating the ABS.

BTW: I am seriously interested in your contact should I not be able to sort stuff out on the Cayman.

Paul

dougdep

F class has been very popular particularly in the northeast the past few years. Seeing more and more Boxsters in the F class each year. They are very competitive vs the older 911's and are not terribly expensive to maintain.

rmag

Paul - This isn't even the Continental Teves MK6 (I think that is about $8-10k). This is just a custom piggyback wire harness, 4 brake line that go from the ABS to the distribution block, and the street BMW ABS Unit. My shop knows the guy, so will have to get contact info. They've still got the unit over there somewhere if you want to take a look at it.

Paul 996

Ryan,

Wow, I definitely want to learn about that option. Particularly if you think it is working for you.

I'll give Charlie a ring when he gets back.

Thanks,
Paul

Nader Fotouhi

Now it is clear that the objection is to TB cars using them. I agree 100%. I did not even know that you could buy them for pre-964 cars. How do they work? Do people remove the TB or go to "0" rate TB to be able to use the coilover?

Gary R.

Nader - No coilover involved, it's just the shock itself that gets replaced..

Frank 993 C4S

Ryan, if you're at NJMP this weekend, we should talk. I "upgraded" my brakes prior to the PCA NJMP ARCA race and this is exactly what I am now dealing with.

rmag

It worked when I tested it, but that was only for a day. I'm assuming it should hold up over time as it's a simple system with easy install/removal.

rmag

I'll be there tomorrow afternoon. Come on by and I can tell you all about it. Make sure to write rules committee so we can get this solution approved. (And don't follow me to close in the race now )

jdistefa

^ I will look for both you guys this weekend

Frank 993 C4S

flatsics

Gary,
This whole adjustable/RR shock rule argument is misguided.
There are all kinds off things that are on Stock class cars that were not available on a factory delivered car.
Cost of the shocks are a poor argument. There are plenty of other very expensive things that can go on a stock class car that improve performance.

A perfect example would be wheels/tires.
You can run stock wheels on your car and race.
You can run RA1's on your car and race and probably use 2 sets max for a whole season.
Do you do that? No.
Why?
Because after market wheels and Hoosiers are a performance advantage.

So, one of the top cars in E class has super light custom BBS wheels that are $4500 a set.
There are no rules on how many sets of new tires you can use in a weekend.
There are no rules restricting compound of the tires.
I have seen that same guy use one set of A6's and two sets of R6's.

I can guarantee that shocks will not make much off difference if you competing against a guy with that kind of tire budget.

This is just one example.

Others:
Custom dyno tuned exhaust.
Engine rebuilt to max of the rules in every category.
Engine custom tuned on the dyno for max performance.
Lsd: stock vs aftermarket.
Custom cage that is welded to the body to increase chassis stiffness.

Just a few examples of very expensive things that are performance enhancers.

I have first hand experience with with a well developed T-bar car using custom valved Bilsteins vs. a well deveolped coil spring car using MCS 2-way adjustable RR shocks.


The shocks are a nice tuning device, but the handling changes are subtle.
All the talk you hear of Adj/RR being 2-3 seconds a lap....maybe if you had crap shocks and set up before.
I guess if you have 4-way adj, a shock engineer, and a shaker rig you could really see some time.

If you have well developed,great handling car with bilsteins and you change shocks...your not gaining seconds.
Properly valved Bilsteins are very good shocks.

Oh...I absolutely agree with you about the pass seat.