2014 PCA Rule Change Proposals for comment posted
08-20-2013, 10:35 AM
#31
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I proposed that the right seat be optional in stock classes. My impression was that several others were going to propose this change also. I would be curious as to how many racers requested this change?
Walt noted that he/the committee posted only the proposals that had a chance of being approved. Is there some reason that the removal of the passenger seat can not be approved that we do not know about? If there is a reason such as insurance requirements that make the passenger seat necessary? If so just tell us.
We have no way of knowing what proposed changes were submitted and will have no way to know what the comments are. The Rules Committee should tell us all the proposals and the number of racers requesting the changes. When the changes are approved, the Committee needs to publish statistics about the comments and the rational for those approved and those denied.
John
Walt noted that he/the committee posted only the proposals that had a chance of being approved. Is there some reason that the removal of the passenger seat can not be approved that we do not know about? If there is a reason such as insurance requirements that make the passenger seat necessary? If so just tell us.
We have no way of knowing what proposed changes were submitted and will have no way to know what the comments are. The Rules Committee should tell us all the proposals and the number of racers requesting the changes. When the changes are approved, the Committee needs to publish statistics about the comments and the rational for those approved and those denied.
John
08-20-2013, 10:39 AM
#32
Burning Brakes
Passenger seat...it would be nice just to see a confirmation that the rules comittee has actually seen this proposal....StewardB mentioned a while back it had never been brought up despite the years of suggestions which seemed odd.
Aftermarket ABS to deal with ice pedal.....when i looked into a different car....it was not an intermittent issue i was a very consistent SAFETEY CONCERN......we have plenty of DE and race guys in our area that deal with this issue....some just gave up on speaking out and deal with it....personally i dont want to be in front of them when their car will not let them stop as they should. after hearing some of the stories and seeing it in a students car....that ended the different car option
But on a very serious note...
How is RR shocks any different than a new ABS....they say race but ill bet there are other options besides "race" abs that could work
to have the same adjustability of RR shocks id need to buy a PLETHORA..hefe do you know what a plethora is???....of shocks for each track. i think of jacobowski's trailer....now tell me how much i would have to spend to get them...ill be its more than what the abs switch would be.....
if a "race" abs is a performance gain than RR shocks are as well with that logic.....just like RR shocks, they just do soething better when set up right...set up is the key for the shocks but same concept.
Paul ive seen what you and Boyer can do on Hoosiers....competitive car in E...more like fastest car in E...i think your times at watkins that one year were eitehr matching or under the current E record. maybe im wrong but i remember you guys being VERY fast when using hoho's in practice
Sliders...confused...so does this mean the recaro sliders cant be used...or just need a back brace...and the rule is only for those with no back brace.??
could make sharing a car in an enduro alot harder...i mean im sure custom foam inserts are cheap or you could just do what hunt does with the phone books and brick on his gas pedal
RSA stuff...intersting way to pose the suggestion...i cant race for podiums...move things around so im faster....what about the guys who now can race for podiums that your displacing.
Aftermarket ABS to deal with ice pedal.....when i looked into a different car....it was not an intermittent issue i was a very consistent SAFETEY CONCERN......we have plenty of DE and race guys in our area that deal with this issue....some just gave up on speaking out and deal with it....personally i dont want to be in front of them when their car will not let them stop as they should. after hearing some of the stories and seeing it in a students car....that ended the different car option
But on a very serious note...
How is RR shocks any different than a new ABS....they say race but ill bet there are other options besides "race" abs that could work
to have the same adjustability of RR shocks id need to buy a PLETHORA..hefe do you know what a plethora is???....of shocks for each track. i think of jacobowski's trailer....now tell me how much i would have to spend to get them...ill be its more than what the abs switch would be.....
if a "race" abs is a performance gain than RR shocks are as well with that logic.....just like RR shocks, they just do soething better when set up right...set up is the key for the shocks but same concept.
Paul ive seen what you and Boyer can do on Hoosiers....competitive car in E...more like fastest car in E...i think your times at watkins that one year were eitehr matching or under the current E record. maybe im wrong but i remember you guys being VERY fast when using hoho's in practice
Sliders...confused...so does this mean the recaro sliders cant be used...or just need a back brace...and the rule is only for those with no back brace.??
could make sharing a car in an enduro alot harder...i mean im sure custom foam inserts are cheap or you could just do what hunt does with the phone books and brick on his gas pedal
RSA stuff...intersting way to pose the suggestion...i cant race for podiums...move things around so im faster....what about the guys who now can race for podiums that your displacing.
08-20-2013, 10:41 AM
#33
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I would love to see comments from PCA on why they see it as an imperative to keep the passenger seat in light of the view held by many that removing it would improve safety. Let's be honest...the vast majority of these cars are nothing close to stock...why insist on the seat? I don't get it.
Full disclosure...I've stepped away from PCA racing in part because of a desire to race & play with something different. But to be honest, I've found some of the rule changes (or lack of changes) rather frustrating over the last couple of years.
I'm glad I have no exit issues with my dual seater.
Full disclosure...I've stepped away from PCA racing in part because of a desire to race & play with something different. But to be honest, I've found some of the rule changes (or lack of changes) rather frustrating over the last couple of years.
I'm glad I have no exit issues with my dual seater.
08-20-2013, 11:02 AM
#34
NASA Racer
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The fact that the passenger seat rule never comes up for comment is just odd and honestly borders on negligence given the safety concern. It's not as if the committee hasn't made very significant improvements for safety like removal of interiors that are nothing more than fire hazards. I hope this is nothing more than a blind spot, but it's hard to understand the reasoning (since none is ever given).
I think the Boxster would be a class killer in D, but there really isn't a class anymore and this won't change that. I also think it could be the class killer in E, but with SPB doing well it's not likely there will be enough cars to move the development for E.
I think the Boxster would be a class killer in D, but there really isn't a class anymore and this won't change that. I also think it could be the class killer in E, but with SPB doing well it's not likely there will be enough cars to move the development for E.
08-20-2013, 11:21 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
Hey Evan,
I am not sure what the correct answer is on the ABS issue. I do not want to have to buy a 10K stand alone ABS system. I want a cheaper solution and I don't want to race against guys that have that if I don't.
I have been gathering a ton of data from Grand Am to whoever will talk to me about it. I think I have a few ideas on how to solve it which I will be trying. One thing that universally seems to make it worse is to not pay close attention to the factory rolling diameter of the stock wheel/tires. There is a ratio there and getting outside of that really throws the ABS system out of wack.
I plan to test all this out on my Cayman and share what I can.
As for the Boxster 2.5 in E with Hoosiers... Yeah, I did a 2:10.9 at the Glen but at 2650lbs. I doubt a similar result with 255 more lbs. The 2.5 really falls on its face at a heavier weight. The SPB rules align pretty well with E except for the allowed running weight and maybe the top (but I think that was addressed recently).
The thing to look at in a 2.5 boxster is that while it can turn a good lap time with clear track it is seriously handicapped in any kind of traffic. It is pure momentum car. All of you E cars have seen an SPB close the gap on you rather quickly and then be parked behind you the rest of the race. We cannot pull around and pass you. Period.
I have to say, I don't really have a horse in this race as I will never run a 2.5 car in E. If you have a 2.5 Boxster you put it in SPB IMHO.
Best,
Paul
I am not sure what the correct answer is on the ABS issue. I do not want to have to buy a 10K stand alone ABS system. I want a cheaper solution and I don't want to race against guys that have that if I don't.
I have been gathering a ton of data from Grand Am to whoever will talk to me about it. I think I have a few ideas on how to solve it which I will be trying. One thing that universally seems to make it worse is to not pay close attention to the factory rolling diameter of the stock wheel/tires. There is a ratio there and getting outside of that really throws the ABS system out of wack.
I plan to test all this out on my Cayman and share what I can.
As for the Boxster 2.5 in E with Hoosiers... Yeah, I did a 2:10.9 at the Glen but at 2650lbs. I doubt a similar result with 255 more lbs. The 2.5 really falls on its face at a heavier weight. The SPB rules align pretty well with E except for the allowed running weight and maybe the top (but I think that was addressed recently).
The thing to look at in a 2.5 boxster is that while it can turn a good lap time with clear track it is seriously handicapped in any kind of traffic. It is pure momentum car. All of you E cars have seen an SPB close the gap on you rather quickly and then be parked behind you the rest of the race. We cannot pull around and pass you. Period.
I have to say, I don't really have a horse in this race as I will never run a 2.5 car in E. If you have a 2.5 Boxster you put it in SPB IMHO.
Best,
Paul
Aftermarket ABS to deal with ice pedal.....when i looked into a different car....it was not an intermittent issue i was a very consistent SAFETEY CONCERN......we have plenty of DE and race guys in our area that deal with this issue....some just gave up on speaking out and deal with it....personally i dont want to be in front of them when their car will not let them stop as they should. after hearing some of the stories and seeing it in a students car....that ended the different car option
But on a very serious note...
How is RR shocks any different than a new ABS....they say race but ill bet there are other options besides "race" abs that could work
to have the same adjustability of RR shocks id need to buy a PLETHORA..hefe do you know what a plethora is???....of shocks for each track. i think of jacobowski's trailer....now tell me how much i would have to spend to get them...ill be its more than what the abs switch would be.....
if a "race" abs is a performance gain than RR shocks are as well with that logic.....just like RR shocks, they just do soething better when set up right...set up is the key for the shocks but same concept.
Paul ive seen what you and Boyer can do on Hoosiers....competitive car in E...more like fastest car in E...i think your times at watkins that one year were eitehr matching or under the current E record. maybe im wrong but i remember you guys being VERY fast when using hoho's in practice
But on a very serious note...
How is RR shocks any different than a new ABS....they say race but ill bet there are other options besides "race" abs that could work
to have the same adjustability of RR shocks id need to buy a PLETHORA..hefe do you know what a plethora is???....of shocks for each track. i think of jacobowski's trailer....now tell me how much i would have to spend to get them...ill be its more than what the abs switch would be.....
if a "race" abs is a performance gain than RR shocks are as well with that logic.....just like RR shocks, they just do soething better when set up right...set up is the key for the shocks but same concept.
Paul ive seen what you and Boyer can do on Hoosiers....competitive car in E...more like fastest car in E...i think your times at watkins that one year were eitehr matching or under the current E record. maybe im wrong but i remember you guys being VERY fast when using hoho's in practice
08-20-2013, 11:33 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I wonder what PCA would do if we all showed up for the Watkins Glen race next year without passenger seats. That would screw up the run groups pretty badly.
08-20-2013, 11:54 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
The 2.5 really falls on its face at a heavier weight. The SPB rules align pretty well with E except for the allowed running weight....
The thing to look at in a 2.5 boxster is that while it can turn a good lap time with clear track it is seriously handicapped in any kind of traffic. It is pure momentum car. All of you E cars have seen an SPB close the gap on you rather quickly and then be parked behind you the rest of the race. We cannot pull around and pass you. Period.
I have to say, I don't really have a horse in this race as I will never run a 2.5 car in E. If you have a 2.5 Boxster you put it in SPB IMHO.
The thing to look at in a 2.5 boxster is that while it can turn a good lap time with clear track it is seriously handicapped in any kind of traffic. It is pure momentum car. All of you E cars have seen an SPB close the gap on you rather quickly and then be parked behind you the rest of the race. We cannot pull around and pass you. Period.
I have to say, I don't really have a horse in this race as I will never run a 2.5 car in E. If you have a 2.5 Boxster you put it in SPB IMHO.
Last edited by jdistefa; 08-20-2013 at 12:29 PM.
08-20-2013, 11:54 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
Aftermarket ABS to deal with ice pedal.....when i looked into a different car....it was not an intermittent issue i was a very consistent SAFETEY CONCERN......we have plenty of DE and race guys in our area that deal with this issue....some just gave up on speaking out and deal with it....personally i dont want to be in front of them when their car will not let them stop as they should. after hearing some of the stories and seeing it in a students car....that ended the different car option
But on a very serious note...
How is RR shocks any different than a new ABS....they say race but ill bet there are other options besides "race" abs that could work
to have the same adjustability of RR shocks id need to buy a PLETHORA..hefe do you know what a plethora is???....of shocks for each track. i think of jacobowski's trailer....now tell me how much i would have to spend to get them...ill be its more than what the abs switch would be.....
if a "race" abs is a performance gain than RR shocks are as well with that logic.....just like RR shocks, they just do soething better when set up right...set up is the key for the shocks but same concept.
But on a very serious note...
How is RR shocks any different than a new ABS....they say race but ill bet there are other options besides "race" abs that could work
to have the same adjustability of RR shocks id need to buy a PLETHORA..hefe do you know what a plethora is???....of shocks for each track. i think of jacobowski's trailer....now tell me how much i would have to spend to get them...ill be its more than what the abs switch would be.....
if a "race" abs is a performance gain than RR shocks are as well with that logic.....just like RR shocks, they just do soething better when set up right...set up is the key for the shocks but same concept.
Frankly, I do not get the RR argument. I have never understood if the complain is about having RR or double/triple adjustable shocks? AFAIK, there are few cars that do not use these shocks in stock class, if it came with coilovers from the factory. The ones that choose not to use them either are concerned about cost or do not see themselves at a performance disadvantage. I do not complain about my competitors using sticker tires every weekend which by far is the highest cost for me.
I think that the rule committee does the best job it can to cater to a lot of opinions. I bet only a small number of PCA racers are on this BBS, and even a smaller number of them post their opinions.
08-20-2013, 11:58 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
Hey Evan,
I am not sure what the correct answer is on the ABS issue. I do not want to have to buy a 10K stand alone ABS system. I want a cheaper solution and I don't want to race against guys that have that if I don't.
I have been gathering a ton of data from Grand Am to whoever will talk to me about it. I think I have a few ideas on how to solve it which I will be trying. One thing that universally seems to make it worse is to not pay close attention to the factory rolling diameter of the stock wheel/tires. There is a ratio there and getting outside of that really throws the ABS system out of wack.
I am not sure what the correct answer is on the ABS issue. I do not want to have to buy a 10K stand alone ABS system. I want a cheaper solution and I don't want to race against guys that have that if I don't.
I have been gathering a ton of data from Grand Am to whoever will talk to me about it. I think I have a few ideas on how to solve it which I will be trying. One thing that universally seems to make it worse is to not pay close attention to the factory rolling diameter of the stock wheel/tires. There is a ratio there and getting outside of that really throws the ABS system out of wack.
Having experience it several times, ice mode is a real problem. Reading between the lines it seems as though both Tiv (Steve Goldman's wrench at ZSA) and Speed Gallery on the west coast have some tricks up their sleeve with the stock ABS system.
One would think that cracking this nut is more important as a real and not infrequent safety problem vs. sliders (speaking of, can't wait to spend $400 to replace perfectly good Recaro sliders).
Last edited by jdistefa; 08-20-2013 at 12:30 PM.
08-20-2013, 12:26 PM
#42
Burning Brakes
Just like your saying braking points are different....WOT points are different on a car that is planted....same thing just differnt points in a corner....if you can set your car perfectly to the track (big if) vs a car with just one setting.....guess who is on the gas first, who has better corner speed etc...
I know abs is a killer...the s2/968 DESTROYS me in the brakes....childs/wasser/cyr/Gary R
etc....it was HILLARIOUS at midO/watkins races this year...i could be FULL in front of them and know they could outbrake and take the corner...and NO i will not chop in front so they cant divebomb/late brake me, i know what they are doing and try to find a way around....
but are there any real comparisons of a race abs vs stock, im sure there is some difference but how much...10 feet-100feet????...is there somethign thats not a "race" abs that could be used i dont know (abs outta a 996 or something), it was not worth risking the cost of a car, someone elses car and safety, and the replacement of a concrete wall or the blue barrior at watkins to me...may never have been a problem but?
maybe allowing the abs fix and adding weight to those that use it is an option...i dont know i dont care as Kailb says...i dont need it or have that option or a hand in the fight but it just doesnt make a ton of sense to me.....i dont want to get punted from behind in an enduro when a guy cant stop
as for sticker tires...they are not always faster than scrubed.. and for that matter you can use street tires if yuo wanted too...if your arguing a cost thing thats up to you...run blizzacks ...thats safer then not having brakes randomly thruought a session. nothign in the rules says you must do this or that.. but not allowing adjustments to make a safe car is my issue with it because they are out on track with me.
I know abs is a killer...the s2/968 DESTROYS me in the brakes....childs/wasser/cyr/Gary R
etc....it was HILLARIOUS at midO/watkins races this year...i could be FULL in front of them and know they could outbrake and take the corner...and NO i will not chop in front so they cant divebomb/late brake me, i know what they are doing and try to find a way around....but are there any real comparisons of a race abs vs stock, im sure there is some difference but how much...10 feet-100feet????...is there somethign thats not a "race" abs that could be used i dont know (abs outta a 996 or something), it was not worth risking the cost of a car, someone elses car and safety, and the replacement of a concrete wall or the blue barrior at watkins to me...may never have been a problem but?
maybe allowing the abs fix and adding weight to those that use it is an option...i dont know i dont care as Kailb says...i dont need it or have that option or a hand in the fight but it just doesnt make a ton of sense to me.....i dont want to get punted from behind in an enduro when a guy cant stop
as for sticker tires...they are not always faster than scrubed.. and for that matter you can use street tires if yuo wanted too...if your arguing a cost thing thats up to you...run blizzacks ...thats safer then not having brakes randomly thruought a session. nothign in the rules says you must do this or that.. but not allowing adjustments to make a safe car is my issue with it because they are out on track with me.
Remmeber your first race at SP and the difference in our braking points into T1. Even at several hundred lbs more, the superior brakes on an overheating car that DNF gave you fits for sevarl laps at the optimum passing zone. RR to motorsport ABS is apples to oranges. The motorsport ABS is a huge performance gain compared to street version. ABS is a prepared mod, so anyone can use it if there is concern about safety, and move up a class. I am not familiar with the ice mode and solutions, but have heard of its occurance. Fortunately, given the cars in my class at this time, I have no dog in this fight at this point.
Frankly, I do not get the RR argument. I have never understood if the complain is about having RR or double/triple adjustable shocks? AFAIK, there are few cars that do not use these shocks in stock class, if it came with coilovers from the factory. The ones that choose not to use them either are concerned about cost or do not see themselves at a performance disadvantage. I do not complain about my competitors using sticker tires every weekend which by far is the highest cost for me.
Frankly, I do not get the RR argument. I have never understood if the complain is about having RR or double/triple adjustable shocks? AFAIK, there are few cars that do not use these shocks in stock class, if it came with coilovers from the factory. The ones that choose not to use them either are concerned about cost or do not see themselves at a performance disadvantage. I do not complain about my competitors using sticker tires every weekend which by far is the highest cost for me.
08-20-2013, 12:29 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
I just don't like the $10K full race ABS being required now for all 987 and 997 cars to run in stock. Ugh.
Matt, yeah there is a difference in rolling diameter for the front and for the rear. I am hearing that you shouldn't run the same front and rear diameter. Which is different than what we new for the 986 and 996 cars.
KaiB, defeating it is a nice idea. We are looking at that possibility on a 6 speed cayman. Dunno about that for a PDK Cayman, that is a whole other can of worms.
Speaking about the PDK proposals.... What I am hearing is a lot of
from the existing GTB1 cars... I suggest to add weight to the PDK cars to give it a less favorable lb/hp ratio within the existing cars in the class. How much of a disadvantage?
Matt, yeah there is a difference in rolling diameter for the front and for the rear. I am hearing that you shouldn't run the same front and rear diameter. Which is different than what we new for the 986 and 996 cars.
KaiB, defeating it is a nice idea. We are looking at that possibility on a 6 speed cayman. Dunno about that for a PDK Cayman, that is a whole other can of worms.
Speaking about the PDK proposals.... What I am hearing is a lot of
from the existing GTB1 cars... I suggest to add weight to the PDK cars to give it a less favorable lb/hp ratio within the existing cars in the class. How much of a disadvantage?
08-20-2013, 12:57 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
08-20-2013, 01:30 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Frankly, I do not get the RR argument. I have never understood if the complain is about having RR or double/triple adjustable shocks? AFAIK, there are few cars that do not use these shocks in stock class, if it came with coilovers from the factory. The ones that choose not to use them either are concerned about cost or do not see themselves at a performance disadvantage. I do not complain about my competitors using sticker tires every weekend which by far is the highest cost for me.
I think that the rule committee does the best job it can to cater to a lot of opinions. I bet only a small number of PCA racers are on this BBS, and even a smaller number of them post their opinions.
I think that the rule committee does the best job it can to cater to a lot of opinions. I bet only a small number of PCA racers are on this BBS, and even a smaller number of them post their opinions.