95ONE

guess not.. . ... you caught me.. I skipped a page or two.

Going back to read..

So far, I see where Ross disagrees with you... Post #10
And then agrees to disagree with you.... Post #16
Now you're telling Richards he is wrong.. Post #20
And Where Richards is saying what I said above but better... Post #27
Mike says the same thing as me and Richards in post #34
Mike disagrees with you in post #38 and #42
Matt disagrees with you in post #40
You disagree with Pete in Post #49

You're most of the reason I don't come to this part of this forum.

Everyone else. Good reading. I took something from it. Thank you.

-Bruce,.

winders

Yes, I started out having an opinion that matched what I read in "Going Faster". It seem to match up well with what I experienced as a motorcycle racer. Different types of bikes needed different amounts of trail braking and "Going Faster" said different types of cars would need different amounts of trail braking.

Well, it seems that the faster drivers here have a different opinion. I am the kind of person that questions what people say when it doesn't make sense to me. You get to read why they think what they think when they explain it to you. That's a good way to learn. I only have experience in my race car but it actually matches up with what these fast guys are saying.

That certainly isn't them saying to get your braking done mostly in a straight line....

So in post #49 I say, based on what I was reading here, that what I read in the book is wrong. So I shut up and read what was being written. Tons of good information. I chimed in again at post #107 to find out which Ross Bentley book I should buy (Ultimate Speed Secrets: The Complete Guide to High-Performance and Race Driving).

Learn, learn, learn.

Scott

333pg333

Thanks Seth. I really just wanted to throw that phrase into the ring while in this thread. The only time I can think of where it's perhaps a consideration is in those long sweeping, off camber corners where you may only touch the brakes once and quickly just to get the nose down a little and then it's a sort of apply as much throttle as you can before you can get back on it in earnest. These are very different to the normal corners where threshold and trail-braking are prevalent.

The other thing is that without data, an instructor, or a hell of a lot of experience, what one thinks they're doing vs what they're actually doing is often somewhat different.

ProCoach

^^This^^

The mind is a powerful thing. It remembers doing what we like to THINK we've been doing, rather than what we WERE doing. That's why it's not a tattle-tale, it's a tool!

jrgordonsenior

Agreed. I spent an entire day at Buttonwillow working on overlapping my breaking, cornering, accelerating. We'd switch positions and compare data which allowed me to track my progress. I must have spun my 6-cup 10+ times trying to learn how to smoothly transition from brake to throttle at 100% of the tires capabilities. It's not a easy thing to accomplish. I practice braking later and carrying the brakes into a turn in my street car and occasionally in a deserted parking lot. It's a trust thing and you have to overcome your initial "feelings" and trust yourself and your car's abilities. The feeling is so completely different from the traditional way we're taught to drive but once mastered, it's incredibly faster. We went thru a lot of tires that day and I also learned how to use a leaf blower to blast out the Buttonwillow dirt from your car.....

Veloce Raptor

One other thing to add to the mix here is that "floating" the car in the corner when one achieves high entry speeds often easily facilitates one throttle input at exit, rather thhan gas/lift to allow front tires to bite/gas/etc. this is especially inportant with rear engined cars, and the multiple throttle inputs at corner exit is one of the killers of exit speed...and is very common.

multi21

Absolutely. I've learned a lot from this thread and am excited that I'll be working on something new and there is still time to be found on track with refining this technique. What a great wealth of information this board provides. Wish I could have all these guys ride with me one day.

Can't wait to see what Ross Bentley's next topic will be on Rennlist!!

bobt993

What VR is saying. ^^^^^^^^^ This is paramount. I was supporting a couple of DE drivers last year along with a veteran club racer who was mainly just logging laps and asking for his sector times. Since he already owned his race class track record he was not expecting much feedback. After looking at his data for his T1 I noticed irregular gsum and throttle applications. Another driver I was working with was actually 5mph faster in the same turn. I rode my bike to the corner and observed both drivers through the corner for several laps. Giving feedback, I was able to show him where and why an almost stock car was faster in that same corner. I transferred that to suggestions. His next session out lowered his race lap record by almost a second. Instead of modulating the throttle he had one commitment WOT just past the apex of the turn. He was able to apply that it two other turns on the track.

A lot of guys are asking for a formula on where and how to accomplish the technique(s). I know that in my case I had to have a pro demonstrate it, ride along, then confirm my improvements with data. It all comes down to car balance and feeling the cars attitude on entry then coaxing it around the turn with as little effort as possible. There are some lead up exercises that start to build confidence such as short shifting, no brake exercises, and setting the wheel or learning to stop stabbing at the throttle.

Matt Romanowski

Are you saying one continual, (relatively) gradual application of the throttle ending at WOT or are you saying straight to WOT? I'm assuming you mean the former, but it's not clear.

multi21

In bold is what is needed to breaking old habits. We've been conditioned to apply gas as early as possible and it seems slower if you are "coasting/floating" or getting on the gas after the apex. Great points!

bobt993

Matt,

The objective is full throttle as soon as possible, but feathering in throttle is typical depending on the car balance. The more loose you set up the car the more you can use aggressive throttle to get the car going again. I was taught to let the car build rotation as I add throttle. You have to anticipate trouble so to avoid big corrections. My experience with data shows that a car understeering does not recover quickly in Lat G accumulation (stair steps), while a car can recover from oversteer in a much shorter time. Peter can expound upon corner release more. I can provide some graphing of the v plots that shows how a driver/racer improves while learning this technique.

jdistefa

Yup! Time on task with purposeful practice

Mahler9th

This is one of the most interesting threads I have seen on rennlist and its predecessors. I haven't read all of the posts as I don't have the time or patience. But I find Ross Bentley's statement describing his experience to be quite interesting.

The teaching and coaching method I use moves away from any focus on the start of braking right from the beginning. It is discussed before we go out, and doesn't really come up again. I don't care when they brake. I focus on slowing the car down enough, just enough, and at the right time, to achieve the next goal, getting through the corner as fast as possible and then achieving the highest possible exit speed. The less speed we lose, the closer we approach perfection (100% of car). As long as we stay on the track and don't crash.

I chose this approach based upon the way I like to teach and the impressions Skip Barber made on me in Going Faster! The video and not the book, which I first saw right after it was made in the mid-80's. Yeah I started way back then.

As for the end of braking, without data acq, it is relevant in my approach when the student/subject has video in the car, with an FOV that includes at least part of the hands and some type of indicator of braking connected to the brake pedal. Then it is relevant to discuss trail braking.

End of braking is also relevant in my approach in discussions of smoothness and managing weight transfer. Here it is not so much where it happens, but how it happens with respect to what the car is doing. We want to slow just enough, and at the right time, to achieve the next goal, getting through the corner as fast as possible and then achieving the highest possible exit speed.

So with my approach, I cannot gain benefit when I instruct or coach by shifting folks from focus on the beginning of braking, generally speaking.

What I see in some of this discussion is pretty cool, but I feel that much of the benefit relates to extracting the car's 100% potential to solve the puzzle piece that is a corner, by examining opportunities that exist beyond simply trying to max exit speed by getting to WOT as soon as possible. The latter is obviously overly simplistic, but works really well, especially when the car does not have on board data acq.

As I think about these things, I envision perfection: the car is the perfect object of physics (with tyres and rubber to road for traction), and, the driver is the perfect supercomputer constantly controlling the available inputs based upon constant data collection. Of course neither are true. So in the latter case, we are always looking to provide the perfect control inputs at all times to optimize.

I think a lot of the discussion about bending cars, coasting and all of the pre-apex yoga is great, but I think it might be best facilitated from an instructing/teaching standpoint with data to review.

I have yet to enter into the world of data acq... perhaps some day. My old friends at Veracity know why I am a bit of a luddite on this. Nor have I used data acq in instructing or coaching.

I don't think we have worked out the best way to move from video (perhaps with brake and WOT lights in the FOV) to exploiting data in its various levels. Perhaps one of the newer data books has some perspective on this, but I don't think we have developed a good process as a community.

We are pretty good at teaching the same stuff without data as that has been going on for decades. I don't think we are great at teaching folks using data, and in my opinion more importantly on the best process for the transition.

To me, this "educational process development" is a great opportunity for Ross, Hank Watts, Skip Barber, Racer University, or countless others. If I worked for a forward thinking data acq company, I would take it on for fun and profit. We'd make a mint.

Mahler9th

I need to put a trademark on "pre-apex" yoga. Really, it should be "post-initial braking, pre--WOT" yoga (tm).

I hope Hank reads this and gets a chuckle.

Rich Sandor

I think VISION has a lot to do with it too. Most of the novice drivers I ride with still have their head fixated forward, all the way thru the corner. Even a lot of our intermediate drivers don't start really turning their head until they are already braking or starting to turn in.

A more advanced driver will be looking farther ahead and farther down the race track, which makes it difficult to pick up the lateral references in your peripherals, but makes it MUCH easier to visualise your curved trail braking zone, and the exit, and possible problems (spins and spills) up ahead.