The End of Braking...
08-21-2012, 10:56 AM
#136
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This is one of the most interesting threads I have seen on rennlist and its predecessors. I haven't read all of the posts as I don't have the time or patience. But I find Ross Bentley's statement describing his experience to be quite interesting.
I chose this approach based upon the way I like to teach and the impressions Skip Barber made on me in Going Faster! The video and not the book, which I first saw right after it was made in the mid-80's.
We are pretty good at teaching the same stuff without data as that has been going on for decades. I don't think we are great at teaching folks using data, and in my opinion more importantly on the best process for the transition.
To me, this "educational process development" is a great opportunity.
I chose this approach based upon the way I like to teach and the impressions Skip Barber made on me in Going Faster! The video and not the book, which I first saw right after it was made in the mid-80's.
We are pretty good at teaching the same stuff without data as that has been going on for decades. I don't think we are great at teaching folks using data, and in my opinion more importantly on the best process for the transition.
To me, this "educational process development" is a great opportunity.
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
08-21-2012, 11:51 AM
#137
Rennlist Member
speaking of data work - is it possible to post something like a cumulative summary of what math channels in AiM RS2 you do usually use and how do you interpret them?
08-21-2012, 03:21 PM
#138
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John's webinars are incredibly useful because they show how to leverage the raw data to provide objective valuation of a whole variet yof (and heretofore subjective) DRIVER inputs like steering speed, braking aggression (as well as release), quantifiable measure of u/s and o/s and other things like "driver panic." I love that last one!
My work is so individualized that I use different measures to address particular potential areas for improvement with EACH individual driver, too granular for a broad summary.
All this information can be gleaned from a variety of sources, including Jorge Segers, Chris Brown and Bob Knox's excellent tome. To flesh it out and learn how to do it yourself without formal training, Block's webinars or Roger Caddell's AiM seminars are the best.
Sorry to derail the thread, but it is possible to use data to enter, explore and substantially tune THIS "soft" aspect of driver development.
08-22-2012, 04:03 PM
#139
Three Wheelin'
Always nice to see the Veracity folks. They are great. Ellen taught me a valuable lesson about seeing oil on the track at Laguna years ago.
Back to Ross' points, I am curious about end of braking. After re-reading much of this and thinking more about it:
1. I think Ross may be referring to end of braking as a process as opposed to just a point in the turn. "What" the driver does to the inputs as the braking process is ended. The "where" is part of that, but perhaps not the most essential part. When I instruct/coach, I refer to this as the "transition." I think I emphasize the transition in some corners on some tracks with students, though usually those with less experience. Turn 3 at Thunderhill is a great example.
2. As I reflect further on my experience, I have found that the beginning of braking "focus" can be helpful to discuss with intermediate drivers, even without data acq., as long as they can relate to a faster driver in the same car. When I instructed my wife in our car, sometimes I'd drive first and then have her drive right after. We could work on initial braking without me having to worry that her eyes would not focus far enough ahead. We could also watch this on video (since we had the dash-mounted brake light) and compare. These discussions would provide confidence regarding opportunities for faster entry speed. Again, same car.
3. To me, if the highest exit speed is reached (100% of car), then by my definition, everything before was perfect. If a driver leaves entry speed on the table, then by my definition, the highest exit speed was not reached.
Without data acq., it has historically been pretty easy to use the concept of max exit speed. We can and do discuss all of the stuff that comes before WOT as we learn and teach.. Data likely gives us all kinds of new and interesting ways to see what is going on and make changes to achieve our goal. And we can theoretically be pretty systematic about it. And of course we can change the car too. The range of things we can do to change the car to affect the post braking period has evolved I think... certainly for cars with more technology than my old 911 with RSR Bilsteins.
4. There are many ways to instruct and coach. I once witnessed Marshall Pruett use an observational approach at trackside with advanced drivers at Sears Point and it was very effective.
5. As for data, I still think that the day will sometime come when we have a new way of teaching that transitions better to using data as skills and experience develop. I personally find terms like "math channel" to be discouraging. I go to the track to have fun, not to solve contour integrals. Perhaps one day we will have the Apple/Mac version of data acq that makes everything easier. Perhaps not. What something is worth depends on what you compare it to.
Back to Ross' points, I am curious about end of braking. After re-reading much of this and thinking more about it:
1. I think Ross may be referring to end of braking as a process as opposed to just a point in the turn. "What" the driver does to the inputs as the braking process is ended. The "where" is part of that, but perhaps not the most essential part. When I instruct/coach, I refer to this as the "transition." I think I emphasize the transition in some corners on some tracks with students, though usually those with less experience. Turn 3 at Thunderhill is a great example.
2. As I reflect further on my experience, I have found that the beginning of braking "focus" can be helpful to discuss with intermediate drivers, even without data acq., as long as they can relate to a faster driver in the same car. When I instructed my wife in our car, sometimes I'd drive first and then have her drive right after. We could work on initial braking without me having to worry that her eyes would not focus far enough ahead. We could also watch this on video (since we had the dash-mounted brake light) and compare. These discussions would provide confidence regarding opportunities for faster entry speed. Again, same car.
3. To me, if the highest exit speed is reached (100% of car), then by my definition, everything before was perfect. If a driver leaves entry speed on the table, then by my definition, the highest exit speed was not reached.
Without data acq., it has historically been pretty easy to use the concept of max exit speed. We can and do discuss all of the stuff that comes before WOT as we learn and teach.. Data likely gives us all kinds of new and interesting ways to see what is going on and make changes to achieve our goal. And we can theoretically be pretty systematic about it. And of course we can change the car too. The range of things we can do to change the car to affect the post braking period has evolved I think... certainly for cars with more technology than my old 911 with RSR Bilsteins.
4. There are many ways to instruct and coach. I once witnessed Marshall Pruett use an observational approach at trackside with advanced drivers at Sears Point and it was very effective.
5. As for data, I still think that the day will sometime come when we have a new way of teaching that transitions better to using data as skills and experience develop. I personally find terms like "math channel" to be discouraging. I go to the track to have fun, not to solve contour integrals. Perhaps one day we will have the Apple/Mac version of data acq that makes everything easier. Perhaps not. What something is worth depends on what you compare it to.
09-24-2012, 07:00 AM
#140
This brings us to a very interestiing yet little-discussed point: namelyy, that many of the very fastest & smoothest drivers will carry so much entry speed at the point that they are fully off the brakes, that they need to sort of "float" or coast the car briefly before applying throttle. If they went to throttle immediately, they would likely leave the track, because the chassis hadn't yet fully settled with the high entry speeds. Instead, it is faster (and safer) to be neither on the gas nor on the brake for a small interval of time in the corner, and THEN go to the throttle...
