bobt993

One point Peter makes that is so important is how data supports certain techniques. When a racer/driver is first adapting to you tearing down their now innate bad habits they tend not to grasp where the benefits are. When you show them 5mph more apex speed and turn entry they join the belief system and confidence grows. As you get comfortable with faster entry and letting the car do the work rather than man handling the wheel things get smoother almost seem slower and less dramatic. Again per Peter's comments the data shows the results.

One thing I have noticed from a really good racer is you may be working on two turns on a track to better these techniques, but as you compile data you start seeing the driver apply them in several other corners properly. They are self-teaching at that point and it is a great feeling to watch it happen.

sbelles

Yes, but the operative word here is single. Many corners in are in series and no braking is required so different degrees of lift are required to achieve the desired rotation.

2BWise

I like to think I've gotten to the point where I use this method regularly for the medium to high speed stuff. Please correct me if this isn't what you guys mean. It seems to have worked for me so far. I stopped thinking of the brakes as the only way to slow the car, particularly when trying to focus on trail braking into corners. The steering wheel is also a "brake" in the sense that as you dial in steering the car is going to slow. I eventually started to realize, particularly in high speed corners where either a slight lift or brake tap was usually needed, that if I turned in a little bit sooner I could use the steering wheel to slow the car. In the data instead of an abrupt loss in speed I could see speed gradually come down as lateral increased. Make sense? This along the lines of what you're doing?

FFaust

Agree 100%.

"Unfortunately", the DE environment has to cater - safely - to a wide variety of experience, aptitudes, attitudes, personalities, objectives, etc., hence the need for a one-size-fits-all teaching environment, and all its limitations.

Many of the DE habits have to be un-learned before they get too ingrained... and this by a driver who is now on his own in the car, trying to figure it all out. So yes, coaching is the way, sooner rather than later.

This, at the moment, is my Holy Grail, it's what is keeping my lap times down. I tend to think that it's a matter of cojones, which for me are unfortunately set at their permanent size, but maybe there's hope with appropriate coaching

jrgordonsenior

Well it does and it doesn't, it depends on the turn. In a long, sweeping, tight turn that exceeds 90 degrees you may find that no matter how much speed you carried into the turn you slow down mid corner and have to feed in a little throttle before you can unwind and go throttle up. The Star Mazda turn CW at Buttonwillow fits this description perfectly. It's at the bottom of this page: http://buttonwillowraceway.com/pdf/b...ap-test-08.pdf

jrgordonsenior

Another related technique we haven't discussed is how to use a high lockup ratio LSD like Guard's 50/80 or 40/60. If you're on maintanance throttle in a long sweeper with a good LSD you can stab & lift, slightly or violently, to rotate the car as you approach the apex. Takes some practice but highly effective....

RickBetterley

Great stuff; I am achieving enlightenment.
Can you tell us how this relates to 'get off the brakes and onto the gas!' which seems to be so often the message many of us hear? I know I coast and that is bad; am I really floating and it is good?

GTgears

I love the ski reference. Makes total sense to me as a life long skier...

Seth Thomas

To be blunt it doesn't. The term maintenance throttle is the application of throttle to maintain a set speed before the car has reached apex. Usually in the DE environment drivers reach their Vmin at the turn in point. To keep from over slowing the car more maintenance throttle is applied hoping to maintain this Vmin from Turn in to Apex. The techniques discussed in the thread are to reach Vmin at Apex which negates the need for maintenance throttle.

Watch my video from Road Atlanta. T1 and T6 are great places to watch the technique we are discussing being put into play.

ProCoach

Ding, ding, ding! We've got a winner!

I tell racers who are trying to find time that maintenance throttle means they're at vMin too long...

Van

So, on the same screen shot I put up before, I've drawn a fuzzy orange line in... Should I be trying to get a throttle trace that's more like this? Closer to full throttle in the middle of Big Bend, then a bigger lift for the 2nd apex; and for the lefthander, end my braking later so I transition later to the throttle, but then get the throttle to full sooner?

Nordschleife

watch the data traces for the fast drivers. They do a counter intuitive 'false steer' prior to turning in. This turns the car into a chuckable object.

Dr.Bill

I have a Cayman R - what are these brakes you speak of?

fleadh

I think people are getting to caught up in the technique described and the graphs displayed.

As Ross says in his books (which I have and read, and think I said earlier) you simply need to drive at the limit of tire grip at all times. Following what's described in the thread (smooth, slow inputs, etc) alone won't get you anywhere (except lapped) unless you're at the limit of grip.

As a thought experiment I'd be curious to see how many people think they're at the limit of grip in the 4 important areas at all times -- braking zone, first third of corner, middle of corner, and exit of corners. I know personally, I go back and forth between thinking I'm there and then having a better driver show me I'm not.

I think most drivers, if they honestly grade their performance, realize they aren't using up all the car but don't have the confidence in their ability to move back and forth over the limit. Myself included, And I have a pretty damn good amount of confidence. :-D

When I found myself stuck at about 1 second off of a very good Pro on a 1:50~ lap, I spent a few months overanalyzing data trying to figure out what the problem was (I'm an engineer by trade, what can i say). It wasn't until I said f*ck it, and just started driving again that I moved on to the next stage of speed...

-mike

Van

All good points - and certainly there are people out there that I wish I was better able to emulate. For me, one problem is I usually drive one or two days a month... and then I have 29 days of sitting on my butt, reading forums and looking at data. So I try to come up with ideas for "what I should do next time" and "how do I want that data to look next time" - 'cause I know there will be many weeks of looking at data in the future.

I wish I could just intuitively feel when I'm at the absolute limit of adhesion at all times. But, alas, I'm just not a naturally talented driver - I have to work hard and practice lots to master these things. And since I haven't had a pro scout pick me up at one of the DEs yet, I still need my day job to pay for my track time.