The End of Braking...
08-17-2012, 12:19 AM
#106
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I think people are getting to caught up in the technique described and the graphs displayed.
As Ross says in his books (which I have and read, and think I said earlier) you simply need to drive at the limit of tire grip at all times. Following what's described in the thread (smooth, slow inputs, etc) alone won't get you anywhere (except lapped) unless you're at the limit of grip.
As a thought experiment I'd be curious to see how many people think they're at the limit of grip in the 4 important areas at all times -- braking zone, first third of corner, middle of corner, and exit of corners. I know personally, I go back and forth between thinking I'm there and then having a better driver show me I'm not.
I think most drivers, if they honestly grade their performance, realize they aren't using up all the car but don't have the confidence in their ability to move back and forth over the limit. Myself included, And I have a pretty damn good amount of confidence. :-D
When I found myself stuck at about 1 second off of a very good Pro on a 1:50~ lap, I spent a few months overanalyzing data trying to figure out what the problem was (I'm an engineer by trade, what can i say). It wasn't until I said f*ck it, and just started driving again that I moved on to the next stage of speed...
-mike
As Ross says in his books (which I have and read, and think I said earlier) you simply need to drive at the limit of tire grip at all times. Following what's described in the thread (smooth, slow inputs, etc) alone won't get you anywhere (except lapped) unless you're at the limit of grip.
As a thought experiment I'd be curious to see how many people think they're at the limit of grip in the 4 important areas at all times -- braking zone, first third of corner, middle of corner, and exit of corners. I know personally, I go back and forth between thinking I'm there and then having a better driver show me I'm not.
I think most drivers, if they honestly grade their performance, realize they aren't using up all the car but don't have the confidence in their ability to move back and forth over the limit. Myself included, And I have a pretty damn good amount of confidence. :-D
When I found myself stuck at about 1 second off of a very good Pro on a 1:50~ lap, I spent a few months overanalyzing data trying to figure out what the problem was (I'm an engineer by trade, what can i say). It wasn't until I said f*ck it, and just started driving again that I moved on to the next stage of speed...
-mike
08-17-2012, 01:01 AM
#108
Rennlist Member
I find sitting R-seat and watching my pro friend wheel my car around is by far the most humbling and educating teacher. His entry speed and control skills are well beyond my pay grade. I grade my performance at 90% and realize exactly where there's more on the table. As you stated, it's the confidence to move back-n-forth over the limit....
Scott, I have them all and they are well worn, different takeaways in each...
08-17-2012, 06:21 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
Yep this is always telling. I was always pretty laid back with a student barreling into a corner knowing the car has plenty left, but sitting right seat with a pro, way deeper into the brake zone you find your left foot impulsively denting the floorboard, and reaching for some handhold when they carry more speed than you thought possible through the corner... It does build confidence knowing what the chassis is capable of and humbling knowing how much you've left on the table...it's an eye opener...
Scott, I have them all and they are well worn, different takeaways in each...
Scott, I have them all and they are well worn, different takeaways in each...
Last edited by Sterling Doc; 08-17-2012 at 07:08 PM.
08-17-2012, 06:30 PM
#111
There's a new compilation of the Speed Secrets books. Look here: n.com/Ultimate-Speed-Secrets-Complete-High-Performance/dp/0760340501
That URL is not complete. Does it refer to the "Ultimate Speed Secrets" book?
Scott
08-17-2012, 11:44 PM
#116
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Certainly, unless the car is not yet pointed in the right direction.
Mike, you know better than most how to do this, but using the tractive effort of the tire to the fullest is harder for most folks that have not had the same access to your resources and the frequency of access to the racetrack as you have.
It's a tough deal. Like love or armchair quarterbacking, it's easier than it looks on video and EASY, on hindsight!
Mike, you know better than most how to do this, but using the tractive effort of the tire to the fullest is harder for most folks that have not had the same access to your resources and the frequency of access to the racetrack as you have.
It's a tough deal. Like love or armchair quarterbacking, it's easier than it looks on video and EASY, on hindsight!
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08-18-2012, 12:12 AM
#117
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For years I wondered why when someone asked me where I started braking for a certain corner I couldn’t seem to give him/her a very accurate answer. Then, when I started asking other drivers the same question I saw a pattern: The best/fastest drivers had a hard time saying exactly where they started braking; the slower drivers could always tell me exactly where they started to brake. Thinking about this I realized that I tended to focus on where I was going to finish my braking when approaching a corner more than where I was going to start. Writing about and coaching drivers to focus on the End-of-Braking point more than the Begin-of-Braking point has been one of the most productive things I’ve done – more drivers tell me this has helped than just about anything else.
I don't know how you instructors do it. How you get into (many of them) a car to be driven to the limits in the hands of someone totally unqualified to drive it, is beyond me. I barely trust myself, let alone anyone else with my life.
08-18-2012, 12:28 AM
#118
Rennlist Member
Brake
Release to the apex
If you're living right you're off the brake and "floating" to the apex
If you over slowed your adding throttle to the apex
Feather in throttle
Be back on full power when the car is pointed in the right direction
Wash
Rinse
Repeat
Less brake
More gas
Don't forget to pay your waitress
08-18-2012, 01:02 AM
#119
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Not quite and you have to be really careful with oversimplifying it but it's more like
Brake
Release to the apex
If you're living right you're off the brake and "floating" to the apex
If you over slowed your adding throttle to the apex
Feather in throttle
Be back on full power when the car is pointed in the right direction
Wash
Rinse
Repeat
Less brake
More gas
Don't forget to pay your waitress
Brake
Release to the apex
If you're living right you're off the brake and "floating" to the apex
If you over slowed your adding throttle to the apex
Feather in throttle
Be back on full power when the car is pointed in the right direction
Wash
Rinse
Repeat
Less brake
More gas
Don't forget to pay your waitress
) Not all turns will let you brake all the way to the Apex. You will have to let off much earlier. You will have to work on letting off at the max cornering speed, and not less. (less being that you have to add more throttle to get there as opposed to steady throttle) Don't forget to realize your own car's limits in between, and maybe work on making it more stable in a trail braking situation. Otherwise, just deal with its quirks on the way out.
Maybe simplify all that with another version. Stop as hard as you can in a straight line, with a little braking left over into the turn. Don't immediately let go of the brakes because you are in a turn. That will upset the balance. smoothly, but quickly let off the brakes for a nice strong transition from front loaded G's to side loaded G's as close to the apex as you can, or the turn will allow. Typical race car juggling act. This just adds an extra "ball" or two..
08-18-2012, 01:41 AM
#120
Maybe simplify all that with another version. Stop as hard as you can in a straight line, with a little braking left over into the turn. Don't immediately let go of the brakes because you are in a turn. That will upset the balance. smoothly, but quickly let off the brakes for a nice strong transition from front loaded G's to side loaded G's as close to the apex as you can, or the turn will allow. Typical race car juggling act. This just adds an extra "ball" or two..
Scott