Ross_Bentley

For years I wondered why when someone asked me where I started braking for a certain corner I couldn’t seem to give him/her a very accurate answer. Then, when I started asking other drivers the same question I saw a pattern: The best/fastest drivers had a hard time saying exactly where they started braking; the slower drivers could always tell me exactly where they started to brake. Thinking about this I realized that I tended to focus on where I was going to finish my braking when approaching a corner more than where I was going to start. Writing about and coaching drivers to focus on the End-of-Braking point more than the Begin-of-Braking point has been one of the most productive things I’ve done – more drivers tell me this has helped than just about anything else.

dave-C2

Thanks for posting an excellent point.
I had the same experience when I asked a pro driver who was coaching me. Very valuable insight, even for drivers like me who aren't at the pointy end of the grid.

winders

Doesn't this depend a lot on the type of corner and whether or not the particular driver is a trailbraker?

I usually figure out how and what speed I want to enter a corner and then figure out my braking back from there. The brakes aren't just for slowing the car....

Scott

winders

Also, I found in my motorcycle racing days that most of the pro racers that I worked with didn't use markers or reference points on the track for most corners. Instead, they had mental pictures of where they were on the track when they started to brake.

These "pictures" and the associated braking points and actions changed based on the lines being taken into a corner and what they were trying to accomplish (fastest, pass, protect). These racers practiced different lines that they might use in a race.

Scott

RickBetterley

Great point, Ross - I think it was Scott Leder from your team of coaches that asked me where I initiate braking. I responded 'I have no clue.' Scott noted that I was braking consistently at the same point (assuming no variables) and that I was probably using subconscious clues. Which is nice, because who the heck has time to really note where they are initiating braking?

dan212

Interesting observation. Shows what the brakes are really for.

I tell students that the brakes are only 50% for stopping and really the other 50% for balance & weight control (or more advanced, bending) into/through a turn.

Thats why when I take them out for a ride I want them to feel how they can't tell when I am off the brakes and into the lateral load. You can see it in the friction circle using data.

To your point: I know when I am off the brake because thats when I am back on the gas

Scott Leder also taught me many years ago to brake a little bit a little earlier than I was so that I could use the last part to better balance the car.

ProCoach

+1. Right back to Ross' point about brake release being the important part.

ubercooper

+1

roughly the same idea that the track out is more important than the turn in...

J richard

This was an "aha" moment for me early on after having read your books, and continues to be one of the key issues I have my students focus on. The other reason it's so important is that the end of braking coincides with another key point, the application of power. By focusing on the point youre getting off the brakes and on the power you have a clear metric for your performance in a corner.

Thanks for posting its nice to have your experience and input here!

Ross_Bentley

I don't think so. It doesn't matter whether you trail brake or not, a driver should focus on the End-of-Braking point when approaching a turn.

I also don't think there are trailbrakers and non-trailbrakers - it's not one or the other. Every driver trail brakes at some point, whether they realize it or not. Well, to clarify, any driver that's half-way fast or better. I've had many drivers tell me they never, ever trail brake, and yet when I go watch them I see that they are - they didn't know they were. Perhaps the problem is they're un-aware because they haven't thought about the End-of-Braking point.

And to carry on with the trail braking theme, I've had some drivers tell me their car doesn't allow or want any trail braking at all. Sorry, but that's just plain wrong. Every car, at some point, will be faster if driven with some trail braking. I'm not saying every corner, all the time. But I am saying that trail braking is needed some (in fact, most) of the time. Some times, it's only trail braking for half a foot into the turn, other times a long way into the turn. But you can't do this - you can't manage what the car needs - if you're not aware of the End-of-Braking point. Which brings us back to the beginning...

Veloce Raptor

Yes, these are very valuable points. I think this also came up in another thread, and in fact even Randy Pobst has written about the greater importance of brake release timing and technique over brake application timing and techniquue.

TRAKCAR

I can never remember marks that I use for braking, if I even use them, but I know exactly when I stop braking; when I am no longer scared. Scared is brake, no scared is gas. The in between part is driving

93 FireHawk 968

Good thread. I had the chance to coach my son during his first time at the track (NJMP -TB) and he wanted to know where my brake points were at various parts of the track. I struggled a bit as to exactly where the brakes go on but had a far clearer vision of where they went off. Glad I was not that far off from what other experienced drivers face.

winders

The type of turn that I do think it is a good idea to figure out a start braking reference point is a turn where late braking is commonly used to make a pass. This is where you are willing to sacrifice proper entry line and entry speed into a corner to get a pass done. Of course, in a race you probably either don't have a chance to see the reference point or you ignore it. But it is good to have. After all, you want to practice those late braking maneuvers too!

I do agree that all the faster drivers trail brake quite a lot even if they do not think they do. Racers have to if they want to go faster or at the very least hold on to their position on track. It just wasn't clear to me that this was about the fastest drivers only. There are plenty of slow to moderate speed drivers out there that just do not trail brake. These are the drivers that tend to concentrate on when they start braking.

I used to see no to very little trail braking all the time in the motorcycle track day and racing environments amongst newer riders as well. I think this stems from the fact that track beginners are taught to get their braking done in a straight line. Most are taught to identify physical reference points at which to start their braking and to use late apexes. This is a good thing from a safety perspective. But it is hard to learn to trail brake when you square off all the corners.

The problem is that many of these drivers/riders don't get instructors later on once they are somewhat competent that are either willing or know how to teach earlier apexes, trail braking, how to brake only as much as necessary, and get back on the gas as early as possible. They end up having to figure the rest out on their own. Sometimes they are fortunate, or hire an instructor, and they get an instructor that can help them learn how to go faster.

That's along winded way to say that I agree with you.....

As a driver/rider, I tend to think more about my "when to get on the gas" point than I do the "end of braking" point. In other words, I am focused on getting on the gas as soon as I can versus getting off the brakes. It would be interesting to hear you perspectives on that and how my thinking is on that.

Scott

Astroman

Yes I agree that in most turns I can't tell you where I start braking.

However, for Turn 1 at every single track I drive, I can tell you EXACTLY where I start braking... along with Turn 10 at Atlanta, the Bus Stop at WG, Turn 7 at Mid Ohio, and Turns 5 and 12 at Road America.