The End of Braking...
08-15-2012, 03:55 PM
#76
Race Director
1st......I lOVE your books!!!! I learned SO much reading Speed Secrets!!!!
Great thread on braking, a point I need to improve in my racing techinque.... Well that and a bunch of other things too..... :>)
I recall Jackie Stewart saying he won most of his F1 races by being "smoother" off the brakes!!!!
Great thread on braking, a point I need to improve in my racing techinque.... Well that and a bunch of other things too..... :>)
I recall Jackie Stewart saying he won most of his F1 races by being "smoother" off the brakes!!!!
08-15-2012, 06:50 PM
#77
Drifting
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Sort of interesting (if there are any skiers here) that we talk about 'bending' into the arc with patience and minimal edge angle to help carry momentum when coaching ski racers. Any more edge angle than necessary causes scrub, deflects the skier's center of mass too early (i.e. pinching or early apexing) and slows the athlete down on the wrong trajectory. Good skiers try to roll on literally just a couple degrees and 'feel' the sidecut. To a novice this would be imperceptable vs. a flat ski, but in fact the turning capacity of the sidecut has been very subtly engaged. Just like bending a car into the turn "early but not early" with just a wee touch of steering input "ahead" of the arc.
In order to have the maximum control through the initial phase of a corner, many of us slightly destabilise the car before turning in, this is analogous to the 'down unweighting' that a top skier does prior to changing direction (lesser skiers have to 'up unweight'). If still comparatively hard on the brakes at this point, the implied instability resultant upon heavy retardation can be used to assist in destroying the inertia and making the car extra receptive to differing directional inputs.
Good downhill skiers are mostly naturals when it comes to driving. I bet Boris Becker is one hell of a skier (don't bet, I know he is).
R+C
08-15-2012, 07:00 PM
#78
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Oh, sorry, Dan, that i didn't answer the sxpecific question you meant. I can only speak for myself here (and perhaps Seth LOL!) but in many cases, with high entry speeds, the blending of brake release and turning necessitates a short (usually less than a second) period where no brakes are being applied and no throttle is being applied, somewhere at or near the place of maximum steering input and just past it, as the chassis settles and the contact patches start working better. The term "float" is often used because, to some people, the car feels as if it is floating through that part of the corner, neither loaded on its nose (braking) nor its rear (acceleration).
http://books.google.com/books?id=YY1...circle&f=false
08-15-2012, 07:21 PM
#79
Rennlist Member
VR & JR - thanks muchly!! That was exactly what I was trying to wrap my head around. That was really helpful.
08-15-2012, 07:37 PM
#80
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If you look at page 57 of Speed Secrets (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13450698128651) Ross has a pic of his Traction Circle in which he details the different steps in taking a turn at maximum speed starting with "Pure(maximum) braking" to combined braking and cornering(trail braking), to "pure(maximum)cornering", and to "combined acceleration and cornering(unwinding", and on to "pure(maximum) acceleration". The charcaol colored section called "pure(maximum) cornering" is what we mortals would refer to as coasting. The graph shows us where that occurs in the process....
08-15-2012, 08:53 PM
#81
Nordschleife Master
... the limitation of tires and the "smooth, progressive overlapping of braking, cornering, and acceleration". It's a valuable read that really helped me understand the contribution of the different dynamics at play. Please spend a minute and take a look....
http://books.google.com/books?id=YY1...circle&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=YY1...circle&f=false
Yes, I understand that it will be to varying degrees depending on the layout of said corner, but the idea of the traction circle and of the smooth transition between axis' of traction is universal, and should apply everywhere...?
08-15-2012, 09:27 PM
#82
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Therefore, "optimum" driving will involve trail-braking at every single corner, correct?
Yes, I understand that it will be to varying degrees depending on the layout of said corner, but the idea of the traction circle and of the smooth transition between axis' of traction is universal, and should apply everywhere...?
Yes, I understand that it will be to varying degrees depending on the layout of said corner, but the idea of the traction circle and of the smooth transition between axis' of traction is universal, and should apply everywhere...?
08-15-2012, 11:58 PM
#83
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Therefore, "optimum" driving will involve trail-braking at every single corner, correct?
Yes, I understand that it will be to varying degrees depending on the layout of said corner, but the idea of the traction circle and of the smooth transition between axis' of traction is universal, and should apply everywhere...?
Yes, I understand that it will be to varying degrees depending on the layout of said corner, but the idea of the traction circle and of the smooth transition between axis' of traction is universal, and should apply everywhere...?
Yes!
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Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
08-16-2012, 12:51 AM
#84
Nordschleife Master
Thanks.
I had/have been led to believe that trail-braking was one of the tools, something to use in some corners, in some circumstances, but not something that should be used everywhere.
It's one of the things that can bite the inexperienced driver, so I can see why DE instructors (as opposed to coaches, who would normally deal with a more advanced clientele) would caution their students, or even omit to mention it.
Brings us back nicely to the topic of "end of braking"... and to what I need to work on.
I had/have been led to believe that trail-braking was one of the tools, something to use in some corners, in some circumstances, but not something that should be used everywhere.
It's one of the things that can bite the inexperienced driver, so I can see why DE instructors (as opposed to coaches, who would normally deal with a more advanced clientele) would caution their students, or even omit to mention it.
Brings us back nicely to the topic of "end of braking"... and to what I need to work on.
08-16-2012, 01:31 AM
#85
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Thanks.
I had/have been led to believe that trail-braking was one of the tools, something to use in some corners, in some circumstances, but not something that should be used everywhere.
It's one of the things that can bite the inexperienced driver, so I can see why DE instructors (as opposed to coaches, who would normally deal with a more advanced clientele) would caution their students, or even omit to mention it.
Brings us back nicely to the topic of "end of braking"... and to what I need to work on.
I had/have been led to believe that trail-braking was one of the tools, something to use in some corners, in some circumstances, but not something that should be used everywhere.
It's one of the things that can bite the inexperienced driver, so I can see why DE instructors (as opposed to coaches, who would normally deal with a more advanced clientele) would caution their students, or even omit to mention it.
Brings us back nicely to the topic of "end of braking"... and to what I need to work on.
08-16-2012, 03:07 AM
#86
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Let's talk about the difference between "trail-braking" and adding steering input while still slowing.
This is the reason why SBRS changed their nomenclature and glossary from "trail braking" to "brake turning" after the publication of Carl Lopez's book, Going Faster.
Brake-turning is what most DE instructors and students do when they talk about "trail braking." The idea is to prolong the release of the brakes on slow and longer corners to assist in provoking the car to pivot on it's outside front wheel axis and reduce the amount of steering input required.
That is a discipline that must be mastered to reduce the amount of time it takes to turn and "point" the car downstream in these slow, excrutiating corners.
That is similar, but NOT exactly what I think Ross, JGS, Seth, VR and I are talking about when we talk about the magical moment where the proper entry speed and brake release affect the suspension platform so perfectly that the car does most, if not all the work in medium and higher speed corners. That is the "bending" part, and is particularly appropriate for medium to fast corners.
While you can easily observe on TV and in videos the feeding in of the wheel as the speed comes off at the end of the braking zone, continuing sometimes all the way down to the apex, that is a somewhat separate and practicable skill set all drivers must familiarize themselves with.
One of the reasons why mine (and others) coaching businesses are going as well as they are is because our clients want a data-supported and concrete set of plans and answers, not this duality and dichotomy of "DE vs racing."
I like to think the best coaches believe there is a most efficient way to conduct a car around the course, and that way is dictated by the execution of fundamental skills as perfectly as possible, every corner, every lap, every session. Do that, and the lap times will take care of themselves..
This is the reason why SBRS changed their nomenclature and glossary from "trail braking" to "brake turning" after the publication of Carl Lopez's book, Going Faster.
Brake-turning is what most DE instructors and students do when they talk about "trail braking." The idea is to prolong the release of the brakes on slow and longer corners to assist in provoking the car to pivot on it's outside front wheel axis and reduce the amount of steering input required.
That is a discipline that must be mastered to reduce the amount of time it takes to turn and "point" the car downstream in these slow, excrutiating corners.
That is similar, but NOT exactly what I think Ross, JGS, Seth, VR and I are talking about when we talk about the magical moment where the proper entry speed and brake release affect the suspension platform so perfectly that the car does most, if not all the work in medium and higher speed corners. That is the "bending" part, and is particularly appropriate for medium to fast corners.
While you can easily observe on TV and in videos the feeding in of the wheel as the speed comes off at the end of the braking zone, continuing sometimes all the way down to the apex, that is a somewhat separate and practicable skill set all drivers must familiarize themselves with.
One of the reasons why mine (and others) coaching businesses are going as well as they are is because our clients want a data-supported and concrete set of plans and answers, not this duality and dichotomy of "DE vs racing."
I like to think the best coaches believe there is a most efficient way to conduct a car around the course, and that way is dictated by the execution of fundamental skills as perfectly as possible, every corner, every lap, every session. Do that, and the lap times will take care of themselves..
08-16-2012, 08:17 AM
#87
Rennlist Member
Where does 'maintenance throttle' fit into all of this?
08-16-2012, 09:18 AM
#88
Rennlist Member
There is nothing as valuable as competent coaching. Hands down the most vaulable modification or tool you can invest in. The DE/Club line you learn from DE instructors is fine for DE events, but if you wish to succeed in racing then competent professional instruction is mandatory.....
DING DING DING! Exactly! The car is doing the vast majority of the work in these properly executed conditions, not the driver!!
08-16-2012, 09:30 AM
#90
Rennlist Member
