Ross_Bentley

Scott - First of all, I'm not the expert, but I'll give you an opinion! I like your focus on "when to get on the gas" approach. And of course, every human is different - even drivers! So, what you see is not necessarily what I see or what another driver sees. I suspect that you are seeing the End-of-Braking point, but you're very focused on getting on the throttle - that's rarely a bad thing (unless you over-slow the car to do that)!

It is interesting how many drivers claim that when they focused on the End-of Braking point they became better/faster/more consistent. When I first recommended this to a driver years ago I never would have thought it would become so useful for other drivers.

Ross_Bentley

One more comment...

Last year I was at a car club track day after doing the club dinner guest speaker thing the night before. During the dinner they actually auctioned me off for some 1-on-1 instruction the following day (yikes!). So, as I walked up to the student who had bid for my services, the instructor who had been working with him said, "This is his second time ever on a track and he has no idea where the line is. If you can get him to drive the line, that would be awesome!" I jumped in the right seat and off we went.

After 2 laps of fairly quiet observation from me, where he missed every single apex by at least 6 feet, I asked the student to pull into pit lane to talk. Sitting there I asked if he knew when he was finished his braking, and he said no. So I asked him to just focus on where he finished his braking for 5 laps, and out we went again. At each corner I reminded him to pay attention to where his foot came off the brake pedal, and to release it slowly. Within 2 laps he hit every single apex, and his line was near-perfect - without one comment or instruction about the line. See, I'd noticed during our first 2 laps that he snapped his foot off the brakes just before turning into the corner, unloading the front of the car, and making it next to impossible to make the car go to the apex. He actually knew where the apex was, but couldn't get the car to go there because of how and when he released the brakes.

Later that day the student's original instructor came up to me and thanked me for teaching the driver where the line was. I told him that we never once talked about the line, and then proceeded to tell him what had happened. I have to admit that I had thought that the End-of-Braking concept was something for more advanced drivers, but this proved that a novice can benefit from it, too.

333pg333

Ross, your books (among others) have caused me quite a few moments of perplexity. Mostly to do with the braking side of things. Having said that I have to say that not only your books, but other's, and one on one advice from pro drivers and an engineer thrown in. What I'm getting at is for the amateur driver there does seem to be conflicting advice given regarding brakes and how/when to use them. You are one of the people that seem to advocate the "Squeeeeezze" method while others suggest a much more rapid initial application. Some still say get most or all of the braking done before corners while others are great proponents of trail braking. As you mention above, we all trailbrake at one point or another. Some claim mid to late apex is the way to go where there seems to be an almost 'Nod-nod..wink-wink' secret early apex method that is used by the very best racers.

A race engineer suggested that the fastest drivers he works with use a very late braking method and roll into the corner to the point that they can't begin to pick up the throttle until apex or after apex. So trying to figure this method out in my mind seems to suggest that it's a quite late and sudden initial application that produces a very steep brake moment on the chart. What I can't reconcile is how you achieve this by 'Squeezing' ?? I'm also thinking that this method is risky without ABS.

J richard

^^^one simple way to look at it is that if you can apply throttle before the apex, you overbraked (or your apex was too late)...

The whole dance of threshold braking is more about extending the straight than it is corner entry (IMVHO) and the hardest to master....

Any tips are appreciated...

winders

I can't agree with that. On some corners that is true, but certainly not all. In fact, on most corners I would say that is not true. At least for my driving style. If anything, I would be accused on being an early apexer and I trail brake a lot.

ABS? My race car doesn't have ABS so I don't threshold brake unless I have to. I get close sometimes but going fast isn't about braking as late and as hard as you can. The faster I got on my bike, the smoother I became with the brakes. I am finding the same to be true with my race car. Smooth on the brakes is critical to keeping the chassis under control and doing what I want. That whole threshold braking dance, as you call it, is much more error prone than smooth.

Scott

MelanomaMan

I'll bet an easy way for most folks to evaluate their braking style is through data if they run it in your car. You'll be able to quickly assess how much (if any) threshold and trail braking you do, and which methods get you through a section faster.

winders

That certainly is the best method. To make my videos more useful, I installed an LED brake light on my dash that the camera picks up. So I can see when I get on and off the brakes in my videos.

Scott

Turn3 Autosport

Great thread Ross! Thanks for posting and great to see you on Rennlist! Hope all is well, lets get in touch!

GTgears

Great thread topic, especially given that so much about a 911's stability and performance in a track environment is tied to that transtion from brake release to throttle. If one is not concious of how and when they release the braking, how can they properly attend to the throttle input?

333pg333

Not just rear engine cars too.

multi21

This is awkward because I consider myself a good drover, but I've never thought about the end of braking. Maybe I'm not as good as I thought based on the comments from others here. My thought has always been to brake as little as possible and "how quickly I can get back on the gas including before the apex" whether it's in a front or rear engine car.

There is no doubt I trailbrake and once the car is rotated to the point I like, it's back on the gas, but I have to admit I use physical brake markers on the track to start my brake process for a qualifying line. Those markers are changed in race conditions based on what Winders said, ie if I'm on the inside overtaking or defending etc.

J richard

I won't derail this thread, it's a very valuable discussion, and yes there are always compromises for particular corners but it is an absolute that if you are applying power (not just maintenance throttle to balance the chassis) before the apex you've scrubbed too much speed. You could be faster.

As far as braking for the corner how hard do you need to brake? As hard/fast/smooth as you can without locking/unbalancing the car. I call that threshold braking, Nothing to do with abs. Ride with a pro and watch how deep and hard the brake application is. They use every foot of the straight on the accelerator and then on to the binders, no coasting or goofing around. Do they squeeze the pedal? You bet, but they do it very fast and firmly.

This is the hardest thing to teach because thee is so much overlap with what goes on into the corner so it's always been easier for me to talk about the end of braking as a critical point related to the apex and the application of the brake is determined by how hard/fast/smooth you can apply the brake (threshold brake)

If you are moderating brake pressure to adjust for differences in entry speed then you're leaving something on the table. I've found focusing on the end of braking and the point power is applied relative to the apex is the best metric on the track. It's that sweet spot that when you get it right you don't need any timer or cone to tell you...

But back to the regularly scheduled programming...

Ross_Bentley

I'm not saying that if you use brake markers that you're not a good driver, Pete. In fact, all the great drivers have some brake reference points (it's just that they don't get overly focused on them). What I'm saying is that every driver I've ever worked with has made improvements by focusing more on the End-of-Braking point. No matter how good a driver is, there's always more to be learned, and the brake release - timing and rate of release - is a critical part of going faster, no matter what level the driver is at, or what type of car. There's not one solution for all drivers and all tracks (that's what makes this so much fun, right?), but when one uses the End-of-Braking point as a reference, most drivers will make an improvement.

Veloce Raptor

This brings us to a very interestiing yet little-discussed point: namelyy, that many of the very fastest & smoothest drivers will carry so much entry speed at the point that they are fully off the brakes, that they need to sort of "float" or coast the car briefly before applying throttle. If they went to throttle immediately, they would likely leave the track, because the chassis hadn't yet fully settled with the high entry speeds. Instead, it is faster (and safer) to be neither on the gas nor on the brake for a small interval of time in the corner, and THEN go to the throttle...

winders

J Richard,

Maybe we define threshold braking differently. Threshold braking to me is applying the brakes as hard as you can without locking them up. Remember, I am in a non-ABS car. The corners that I threshold brake in are corners like turn 14 at Thunderhill and turns 7 and 11 at Sears Point. These are long hard braking zones. Other corners, where less time is spent on the brakes, usually benefit from a more subtle approach to braking. These are the corners where I am focusing on slowing down just enough while setting up the car to be its best for that corner. In these cases, threshold braking is more likely to result in a braking error and upsetting the chassis. Remember, the brakes aren't just for slowing the car....

Scott