ASK THE COACH
05-15-2011, 09:16 AM
#106
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Coaches,
I got a question. In a generic kind of way if one hit an apex 2 miles per hour faster than the time before is there any generic sense of how much that results in laptime? You know, kind of like that rule of thumb taking 100lbs out of a car is good for 0.1 seconds in 0-60mph time.
Thanks!
I got a question. In a generic kind of way if one hit an apex 2 miles per hour faster than the time before is there any generic sense of how much that results in laptime? You know, kind of like that rule of thumb taking 100lbs out of a car is good for 0.1 seconds in 0-60mph time.
Thanks!
Too many questions perhaps I'll get kicked off here.... So lets say you battle with a guy and you can feel you tires get greasy and you get hot and flustered over driving your car. Continuing a battle almost ensures he will get away.
Once I tried to calm myself sort of Zen so to speak and got target fixated. He made a mistake which I could have capitalized on. Instead fixated on him while trying to calm down to gain composure to have another run at him, I followed his mistake and almost drove off the track! In every race I seem to find a few laps that are sweeter than the rest where the car seems to work best or I'm in best tune with it. I'm not sure which but I'd love to find those sweet laps when trying to get around a tough racer.
If you need to get by a person of similar talent what can be done with your driving so that you and your car so that you can be in a better position to make the pass and keep it?
Once I tried to calm myself sort of Zen so to speak and got target fixated. He made a mistake which I could have capitalized on. Instead fixated on him while trying to calm down to gain composure to have another run at him, I followed his mistake and almost drove off the track! In every race I seem to find a few laps that are sweeter than the rest where the car seems to work best or I'm in best tune with it. I'm not sure which but I'd love to find those sweet laps when trying to get around a tough racer.
If you need to get by a person of similar talent what can be done with your driving so that you and your car so that you can be in a better position to make the pass and keep it?
05-15-2011, 12:18 PM
#107
Three Wheelin'
Thank you!
Here is what I meant: generally, the car knows the proper trajectory thru a corner, providing the driver provides some "adult supervision" at entry. If you accept this premise, then you should do everything possible to not "fight" the car & force it where it doesn't want to go. For example, many folks don't begin opening up their steering at apex, and they kill a lot of exit speed with front tire scrub...in addition to introducing instability as the front tires load up instead of the rears. So yes, your summary is accurate IMO.
Exercises? Start opening up steering (slowly, a few degrees at a time) sooner than your comfort level suggests....see if you go off track at track out! See if you are adding steering angle at or even after apex. Things like that.
Here is what I meant: generally, the car knows the proper trajectory thru a corner, providing the driver provides some "adult supervision" at entry. If you accept this premise, then you should do everything possible to not "fight" the car & force it where it doesn't want to go. For example, many folks don't begin opening up their steering at apex, and they kill a lot of exit speed with front tire scrub...in addition to introducing instability as the front tires load up instead of the rears. So yes, your summary is accurate IMO.
Exercises? Start opening up steering (slowly, a few degrees at a time) sooner than your comfort level suggests....see if you go off track at track out! See if you are adding steering angle at or even after apex. Things like that.
To add a little bit here, when you enter a corner, through the amount of braking, release point and steering input, you are pretty setting the course for the car on turn exit. When you are exiting the turn, you are allowing the car to follow the course that you have set, accelerating and unwinding the wheel as needed to maintain grip at the back of the car. So you can be more direct with the car on turn entry, but if you have the ability to "make the car do whatever you want it to do, anywhere on the track", then you are driving below the limit of the tires.
Larry - hope the weather holds for you this weekend and me this Mon/Tues...
05-15-2011, 01:04 PM
#108
Rennlist Member
IMO there is absolutely no way of telling. It is all situationally dependent. For example, if you take it 2 MPH faster, you might scare yourself & slightly overbrake for the next corner, totally negating any advantage. Forget all the feet per second/you travel X number of feet/DOT versus slicks/so it's worth Y seconds. It is all situational.
I said, ater a quick analysis:
"I would guess that for every 1mph around an apex faster, that relates to 2 seconds a lap faster. That's a guess. as was mentioned, there are quite a few factors to consider"
your response was kind of silly. the OP wanted to know the net effects of running arond a turn 2mph faster. I gave the distance that might represent, and the effect on the following straight. I think my "guess" is in the right ball park. the main point of this, is that cornering speed is pretty important!
We all like to generalize about effects of tires, corner speed, weight in the car, etc. He asked a generic question and I provided a generic answer
100lbs efffects lap times by 1second
100lbs effect drag times by.1 second
now, 1 mph around corner speed might effect lap times by 2 seconds. All just fun estimations. this one is interesting though. might want to try an experienment at laguna this next race weekend and see.
05-15-2011, 01:07 PM
#109
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
05-15-2011, 01:50 PM
#110
No Schtick here Dave. You clearly discounted some basic calculations to help with a generic question and I think (correct me if im wrong), thats all he was looking for. I think if you look at any data, I bet its not that far off, but then again, any major change in racing is about 2-4 seconds a lap too, huh?
carry on Dave,
Mark
carry on Dave,
Mark
Your desire for attention is just ridiculous....
05-15-2011, 02:08 PM
#111
I value the comments of both you gentlemen. Mark, if you do the test let us know how it works out. I'm not consistent enough in laptime so that is what prompted my question. Dave, you are right too because I did exactly what you said I might do. I was at the track yesterday and just took one corner and tried to improve just that one spot to gain some time leaving everything else alone. I was sneeking up the speed at the apex and then freaked myself out and killed my exit speed more than once. It took me some time to do as Mark suggested and actually gain overall time. Now I'm trying to get a feel for quatitating it since I'm not running any data. I'm dumb with electronics. If it wasn't for my kid all my clocks would flash "12".
05-15-2011, 02:13 PM
#112
Fun estimations? Have you thought about doing some math? Going around one corner 1 MPH faster with have very little effect on your lap time. At Laguna Seca, going 1 MPH faster around the whole track will gain your a little more than 1 second in lap time.
Scott
05-15-2011, 02:23 PM
#113
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I just received two separate questions via PM. Here they are:
Q: some coaches seem to ride in the right seat + analyze data and or video, some won't ride right seat at all. Why is this? Which is better?
A: you are correct. I am in the first group, and can't answer why the folks in the second group are there. I find riding right seat with a driver to be irreplaceable if it is at all possible. Sometimes, on race weekends, it is not possible (no passengers in race run groups) but when it can be done, it should, IMO. Others obviously disagree. Which is "better"? Can't & won't answer that, since that is an individual decision.
Q: I run Hoosier R6's now. Should I upgrade to (brand x) slicks if my race class allows it?
A: I won't get into tire brands here. Slicks are going to be grippier and thus faster, PROVIDING that the car AND DRIVER are set up for them. By car I mean suspension elements and settings, spring rates, bushings to handle extra g loads. Alignment, etc. By driver I mean do you have the courage to use the extra grip and siuspend disbelief that the car won't stick? Can you drive precisely and not slide the car as much? Etc.
EDIT: one more thought is that slicks have a much narrower band of optimal operating conditions (pressures, temps, etc) than R compounds do, so to really take advantage of the extra speed slicks can provide, extensive testing is often necessary.
Q: some coaches seem to ride in the right seat + analyze data and or video, some won't ride right seat at all. Why is this? Which is better?
A: you are correct. I am in the first group, and can't answer why the folks in the second group are there. I find riding right seat with a driver to be irreplaceable if it is at all possible. Sometimes, on race weekends, it is not possible (no passengers in race run groups) but when it can be done, it should, IMO. Others obviously disagree. Which is "better"? Can't & won't answer that, since that is an individual decision.
Q: I run Hoosier R6's now. Should I upgrade to (brand x) slicks if my race class allows it?
A: I won't get into tire brands here. Slicks are going to be grippier and thus faster, PROVIDING that the car AND DRIVER are set up for them. By car I mean suspension elements and settings, spring rates, bushings to handle extra g loads. Alignment, etc. By driver I mean do you have the courage to use the extra grip and siuspend disbelief that the car won't stick? Can you drive precisely and not slide the car as much? Etc.
EDIT: one more thought is that slicks have a much narrower band of optimal operating conditions (pressures, temps, etc) than R compounds do, so to really take advantage of the extra speed slicks can provide, extensive testing is often necessary.
Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 05-15-2011 at 03:17 PM.
05-15-2011, 06:00 PM
#114
Racer
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Dave
When you right seat someone, what are some of the things you look for? What are some of the more common errors you see that don't show up on data? Seat position, not looking far enough down the road, busy hands, etc?
Thanks
Tony
When you right seat someone, what are some of the things you look for? What are some of the more common errors you see that don't show up on data? Seat position, not looking far enough down the road, busy hands, etc?
Thanks
Tony
05-15-2011, 08:49 PM
#115
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hey, Tony, I look at all sorts of stuff. Some included seating position, grip on wheel, any obvious tension in hands/arms/shoulders/neck, hand speed, leaning forward in "scary" sections, head & eye movement (head/helmet is easier to see with a HANS), footwork, leg position, delicacy with the shifter, mechanical sympathy in general, whether the person can converse with me while staying ahead of the car, etc etc etc.
Common errors? Wow, a big one is actually sitting too far from the wheel. Add to that not looking far enough ahead, fast hands & feet, abrupt application & especially release of brakes, poor heel/toe technique, downshifting at the first instant of brake application, getting back to gas too hard/soon and then having to lift before going to gas again, too much drama in the transitions of the mass of the car, thinking/being pissed about a mistake 2 corners earlier instead of focusing forward, etc.
05-15-2011, 08:55 PM
#116
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Hey, Tony, I look at all sorts of stuff. Some included seating position, grip on wheel, any obvious tension in hands/arms/shoulders/neck, hand speed, leaning forward in "scary" sections, head & eye movement (head/helmet is easier to see with a HANS), footwork, leg position, delicacy with the shifter, mechanical sympathy in general, whether the person can converse with me while staying ahead of the car, etc etc etc.
Common errors? Wow, a big one is actually sitting too far from the wheel. Add to that not looking far enough ahead, fast hands & feet, abrupt application & especially release of brakes, poor heel/toe technique, downshifting at the first instant of brake application, getting back to gas too hard/soon and then having to lift before going to gas again, too much drama in the transitions of the mass of the car, thinking/being pissed about a mistake 2 corners earlier instead of focusing forward, etc.
Common errors? Wow, a big one is actually sitting too far from the wheel. Add to that not looking far enough ahead, fast hands & feet, abrupt application & especially release of brakes, poor heel/toe technique, downshifting at the first instant of brake application, getting back to gas too hard/soon and then having to lift before going to gas again, too much drama in the transitions of the mass of the car, thinking/being pissed about a mistake 2 corners earlier instead of focusing forward, etc.
Can you expound upon "too much drama in the transitions of the mass of the car".
05-15-2011, 09:03 PM
#117
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hahaha! Sure, Tony. By that phrase I mean (for example) the car loads and unloads its suspension too rapidly fore & aft and/or from side to side. Here is a specific example: many folks will come on the brakes REALLY hard, pitching the nose of the car down & the rear up, then release the brakes almost as dramatically, which suddenly lifts the nose...and then they wonder why they are getting so much understeer as they enter the corner & approach apex as they get to the gas. So they lift, to get the front to griip & not slide off wide, then this process goes back & forth sometimes several times...gas on gas off gas on gas off etc. The car is porpoising fore & aft.
Or, they could apply the brakes a bit more gently initially, getting the car to squat instead of dive, and then come off the brakes more like a lamb than a lion, allowing the chassis to settle gently on the rear tires.
Or, they could apply the brakes a bit more gently initially, getting the car to squat instead of dive, and then come off the brakes more like a lamb than a lion, allowing the chassis to settle gently on the rear tires.
Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 05-15-2011 at 09:31 PM. Reason: typos...
05-15-2011, 09:30 PM
#118
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Hahaha! Sure, Tony. By that phrase I mean (for example) the car loads and unloads its suspension too rapidly fore & aft and/or from side to side. Here is a specific example: many folks will come on the brakes REALLY hard, pitching the nose of the car down & the rear up, then release the brakes almost as dramatically, which suddenly lifts the nose...and then they wonder why they are getting so much understeer as they enter the corner & approach apex as they get to the gas. So they lift, to get the front to griip & not slide off wide, then this process goes back & forth sometimes several times...gas on gas off gas on gas off etc. The car is porpoising fore & aft.
Or, they could apply the brakes a bit more gently initially, getting the car to squat instead of dive, and then come off the brakes more like a lamb then a lion, allowing the chassis to settle gently on the rear tires.
Or, they could apply the brakes a bit more gently initially, getting the car to squat instead of dive, and then come off the brakes more like a lamb then a lion, allowing the chassis to settle gently on the rear tires.
05-15-2011, 09:33 PM
#119
05-15-2011, 10:35 PM
#120
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I am going to make this bluntly clear again. I thought it was clear in the first post I made in this thread. This is not the place for the usual banter, back & forth, and occasional jabs we all participate in with other threads. It is not the place for arguments. It is not the place for disputes or bluster or BS.
It is a place for anyone to ask anything about driving or racing, solicit input about their own skillsets, even post video and data for feedback, and have as many coaches and experienced instructors as care to respond give honest and succinct answers/opinions.
I appreciate the moderators keeping us focused.
Thank you.
It is a place for anyone to ask anything about driving or racing, solicit input about their own skillsets, even post video and data for feedback, and have as many coaches and experienced instructors as care to respond give honest and succinct answers/opinions.
I appreciate the moderators keeping us focused.
Thank you.
Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 05-15-2011 at 10:51 PM. Reason: typo
