Veloce Raptor

I think it would be relatively easy, given what sounds like a really nice set up! One of the big things with heavy, fast, but soft cars is all the pitch & roll in transitions (gas, brake, cornering) which hinders grip and often requires more of a point & shoot approach. I always urge folks to reduce the intensity & drama of these transitions as the mass of the car moves around. This is done by softening initial brake application a bit, smoother more gradual release of brakes, starting turn in sooner but with a lot less steering angle ("rolling" the car into the corner), etc. With your suspensiion, that would IMO be much easier, presuming your spring rates are commensurate with your Motons & the weight of your car.

Land Jet

450/700 spring set at present. I have heard that 600/800 would be better. I wouldn't want a 1000 pounder at my stage of the game. How much difference would a spring change make?

mglobe

Before you go about changing springs, you might look at your alignment. A lot of folks run more negative camber up front than on the rears. If you took your front camber up to -2.5, and left the rear alone, you would address at least some of the understeer issue.

Veloce Raptor

i agree with mglobe on this. In addition, what higher rate springs do, among other things, is give you flatter cornering with less body roll. This in turn gives you more usable contact patch in corners and less dramatic weight transfer. In conjunction with your Motons, the car will be a lot more responsive at turn in and a lot more balanced and un-dramatic in the entire cornering sequence IMO.

mark kibort

I think Mglobe was talking to increase camber slightly to 2.5 degrees, especially if he is on the soft side to begn with.

Going to a stiffer spring, can actually increase or cause oversteer, even though you might reduce body roll. This is what the "tuning as a system" part is all about. flatter cornering, less body rolll doest always equal "more responsive at turn in". Many times, soft, with some body roll gives the most responsive turn in. Adding camber to this set up would then allow for more contact patch to match the body roll. the less dramatic weight transfer can be achieved by stiffer bump on the shocks .
Going to stiff on springs or sway bar settings makes your car feel like a go cart on the streets, with all the things you are saying, but on the track, it can be a pushing disaster. This is the art of set up.

One GREAT example is the local SCCA ITE Camaro that was just destroyed last month. it started out as easy pickings for most of us due to its weight, but high level of hp. it just couldnt handle. with some advice at the track to soften things way UP. they removed the front and rear swaybar , and did some testing. 3 seconds were found even though it was rolley polley. turn in was amazing, and lots of neutral grip. reducing the spring rates, and lowering the swaybar settings and suddenly, it was handling as well as the comp coupe vipers and had the power to match. sad it was killed off in an accicent, just as they figured it all out after 8 years of evolution!

Veloce Raptor

I will let the true suspension experts here, such as Larry Herman and Chris Cervelli, comment on using stiffer springs, both for better & worse. In addition, adding bump (compression) is not optimal in many cases. Rather, having as little bump & as much rebound as the car will take (given a decent track surface, etc.) often yields better results. Not always, but often. And with a stiffer spring, the shocks can be set softer for more compliance over bumps, curbs, etc.

renvagn

+1 on the above. I frequently hear the term shuffling, as a student or with a stock steering wheel you may want to repostition your hands at 6 and 12 after your downshift is completed for tight turns. Your hands are in positioned at 3 an 9 without getting crossed up thru the corner. From a physical stand point it also keeps your scapulae firmly against the seat back ( where as if you get crossed up, you pull your loaded shoulder away from the seat and get some thoracic rotation) your not fighting the forces of the car and can thus feel what is happening with the car. I think this is why you get this synergistic good feel, but there are limited circumstances that require it.

mark kibort

shuffle steering is bad and can usually be a cause of a lot of accidents when the car gets a little out of shape directionally . pros can cheat or drive around this, but at the edge road racing, by having the hands always at 9 and 3 or 10 and 2, the neutral point, as far as the brain goes, and level of steeing input is intrinsically known. as soon as you move your hands around, that mental "0" point is reset and you might have no idea where the "0" point is. it becomes an advantage exiting turns and fethering power, with steering input. if you cheat up, you get a little more leverage, can induce more oversteer by putting too much input, and get lost in the correction. Its just a real bad habit that I like to stop from the very first session if Im instructing.

ProCoach

That's a fact. I define for my students and clients that "the limit" is where the smallest change in the amplitude of a control input (brake, throttle, steering) makes a difference.

If a driver is dropping throttle (lifting completely and violently) to horse the car around, there's something wrong.

If you can feel a weight shift or trajectory change with a credit card's thickness change in throttle input, you're close the the limit and doing well.

There is no car that cannot be driven quicker by someone else...

Veloce Raptor

truth

mark kibort

There is also a way test the general effect of a stiffer spring, and that would simply incorporate the sway bar settings. a stiffer swaybar increases the spring rate on one side, but jacks down the car's opposite wheel. over bumps, it can be upseting, but over bumps that both wheels see, there is no effect.

having the bump set at the highest level that doesnt rattle your teath, is a good starting poing. . Rebound settings gernally as much, for a track that doesnt jack the car down. (i.e. if too bumpy of a track, the shock never gets a chance to extend fully and you end up going lower and lower, or called "jacking down" which is bad)

Its probably the most interesting subject matter, because there are so many factors and trade offs. bump, (high speed , low speed) rebound, sway bar (front to rear) spring rates, suspension geometry, etc. all revolving around the driver capabilty and style. thats why the perfect set up for Pat Long might not be as good as one for another driver.

I guess the main queston is really more about what is the end goal.



.

renvagn

Mark Wrote: s[QUOTE]huffle steering is bad and can usually be a cause of a lot of accidents when the car gets a little out of shape directionally . pros can cheat or drive around this, but at the edge road racing, by having the hands always at 9 and 3 or 10 and 2, the neutral point, as far as the brain goes, and level of steeing input is intrinsically known. as soon as you move your hands around, that mental "0" point is reset and you might have no idea where the "0" point is. it becomes an advantage exiting turns and fethering power, with steering input. if you cheat up, you get a little more leverage, can induce more oversteer by putting too much input, and get lost in the correction. Its just a real bad habit that I like to stop from the very first session if Im instructing.[/Q

It is the instructors assessment of the student if this technique could be executed safely by the student in addition to the other areas of focus. My student yesterday at the IMSA course at Pocono, was locked out at turn 5 and was unable to get the car to apex. We elected not to use the 12 and 6 reposition but discussed it's merits and application at perhaps one corner at several of the courses in the Atlantic east coast. By setting your hands at 12 and 6 you intrinsically retain where the "0" point is and can place the car where desired with throttle and steering input. Steering input remains constant relative to the desired placement of the car. I believe the original question posted was relating Oak Tree at VIR and yes this is a corner where this can be of help.
I know personally going through the ranks that many a chief instructor with many regions have suggested this technique. But again I will preface driver and corner specificity, just as left foot braking has it's merits at certain times in directing car position and attitude. In RTR our last two chiefs use this technique as does Larry. All accomplished drivers in there own right, but none are pro's. For the right driver it is something in the skill set to be utilized, granted on a limited basis.

Seth Thomas

This is true. There is a lot of info available on forums that can guide in either the right direction or the wrong direction. The problem with suspension tuning on the internet is nobody knows fully what you and your car are doing together. There is usually one bit of info that is being left out that can be huge into getting the car setup right. My advice for you is to not read into the internet as a bible about how to tune the car. Look at it as more of a guide. Then find a local shop that can take care of you and advise you in the right direction for you and your car. There are a lot of shops that offer trackside support for a DE. Find those guys and use them. They can help you at the track when you need it most and the info is fresh in your head.

This brings another topic to my head. Be advised on group buys also. You may save money compared to your local shop but you are only cheating yourself. They local shop or the shop you buy the majority of your stuff from is there for a reason if they are worth their salt. They are there to help you remain a customer of theirs. They are there to help you become a better driver and have a fun reliable car. In order for them to do this they need to make money too. Make them earn that money by buying the parts from them and letting them help you tune them. I have seen group buys a lot for suspensions or data systems where the group buy vendor doesn't support the product past the point of sale or they can't support it because they don't understand the specifics of the car it goes on. This does no one involved a favor. All it does is start headaches for the buyer and their shop because they shop lost a valuable sale.

Sorry for my $.02 rant on this. As I was typing the first response it brought up my idea on the second.

BostonDMD

Are there any last words of wisdom from all the coaches out there to the participants of this week-end:

2011 CLASH AT THE GLEN?

Larry Herman

Go fast Paolo. Be gentle with your steering inputs. See you in a couple weeks.