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11-11-2012, 10:32 PM
#1081
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Whether a car is "faster" or "slower" than another car is NOT a static condition.
It's a spread that changes all the time.
If your Car B brakes later for an earlier apex, he's either not going to make it or he's going to crash into the side of Car A and go on 13/13!
There is no way that I know of that a car that FULLY accelerates up to the braking point, brakes optimally for a particular corner (at the proper place with the proper brake release and subsequent pickup of the throttle while maintaining combined g's indicating that the tires are being fully used through the transitions), is going to be passed unless they make a mistake or the person passing them makes a mistake.
I am talking about a pass for position within class among cars relatively equal in POTENTIAL performance. And I have a LOT of experience with spec cars in close competition.
Your car B proposed pass sounds like your posts. Just barging in...
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www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
11-11-2012, 10:37 PM
#1082
Here is a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKr...w&feature=plcp
Edit: Same class cars in a spec class. These two cars qualified 0.114" apart.
Scott
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKr...w&feature=plcp
Edit: Same class cars in a spec class. These two cars qualified 0.114" apart.
Scott
11-11-2012, 10:47 PM
#1083
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The early apex is already a fait accompli and you slowed down enough to complete the corner optimally. You did a better job.
What does this have to do with defensive lines? Looks like he took his medicine and didn't try to screw you. He did the honorable thing, but you'd already set up the pass well and correctly.
Both of you behaved well and raced ethically.
11-11-2012, 10:57 PM
#1084
Yep. He screwed up and went wide exiting left of the previous corner, you got the monster run AND you braked WAY better than him.
The early apex is already a fait accompli and you slowed down enough to complete the corner optimally. You did a better job.
What does this have to do with defensive lines? Looks like he took his medicine and didn't try to screw you. He did the honorable thing, but you'd already set up the pass well and correctly.
Both of you behaved well and raced ethically.
The early apex is already a fait accompli and you slowed down enough to complete the corner optimally. You did a better job.
What does this have to do with defensive lines? Looks like he took his medicine and didn't try to screw you. He did the honorable thing, but you'd already set up the pass well and correctly.
Both of you behaved well and raced ethically.
Scott
Last edited by winders; 11-12-2012 at 06:35 AM. Reason: clarification
11-13-2012, 10:13 AM
#1088
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I guess I don't understand this argument. Both sides are correct.
???
???
11-21-2012, 01:39 AM
#1089
Rennlist Member
Matt,
Are you kidding?
Let's use Turn 7 at Sears Point in an example:
Car A is in the lead but slightly slower than car B. Car B doesn't have the speed to pass car A on the straight exiting the carousel toward turn 7 but can get right on car A's bumper at the braking zone. Car A plans on taking the "fast" line for turn 7 and moves to the left of the track nearer the wall. Car B goes to the inside and takes a much earlier apex than car A. Car B brakes a little later and a little longer and steals the apex and the corner completing the pass. Car A could go faster through the corner but car B is in the way. After that, car B slowly walks away from car A for the win.
Car B, by taking the earlier apex, is able to brake later allowing him to move from behind to beside car A. Yes, car B does mess up his speed through the corner and does have slower exit speed. But, that doesn't matter. Car A is stuck behind him.
If car A had taken a more defensive (inside) line, car B would not have been able to pass. Car A would have been a bit slower through the corner but would have kept the lead at least for the time being.
Leave the inside open and you are begging to get passed by cars that are as fast or faster than you.
What were you saying again?
Scott
Are you kidding?
Let's use Turn 7 at Sears Point in an example:
Car A is in the lead but slightly slower than car B. Car B doesn't have the speed to pass car A on the straight exiting the carousel toward turn 7 but can get right on car A's bumper at the braking zone. Car A plans on taking the "fast" line for turn 7 and moves to the left of the track nearer the wall. Car B goes to the inside and takes a much earlier apex than car A. Car B brakes a little later and a little longer and steals the apex and the corner completing the pass. Car A could go faster through the corner but car B is in the way. After that, car B slowly walks away from car A for the win.
Car B, by taking the earlier apex, is able to brake later allowing him to move from behind to beside car A. Yes, car B does mess up his speed through the corner and does have slower exit speed. But, that doesn't matter. Car A is stuck behind him.
If car A had taken a more defensive (inside) line, car B would not have been able to pass. Car A would have been a bit slower through the corner but would have kept the lead at least for the time being.
Leave the inside open and you are begging to get passed by cars that are as fast or faster than you.
What were you saying again?
Scott
11-21-2012, 01:33 PM
#1090
Burning Brakes
Since we're talking about Sonoma here's a lap or 2 of me battling with Mike Skeen in the GTR during the WC race this year. We raced each other clean which was why the pass at the end actually happened and he didn't close the door (which he could have, and would have if it was the end of the race). Also, if it was the end of the race, after my initial dive to the inside of 7 at the start of the video, I would have pushed him out into the dirt entering the esses (I actually was 2 wheels off in the dirt coming out of 7.. lol). But since it was early in the race, the risk wasn't worth it.
With equal cars and no mistakes, the only way I've found to pass someone under braking is to decide early on that you're ok with them turning in on you (resulting in contact). The only way you're going to make it is if you get lucky and they see you and give you room. It's up to the overtaking driver if the risk is worth the reward....
-mike
With equal cars and no mistakes, the only way I've found to pass someone under braking is to decide early on that you're ok with them turning in on you (resulting in contact). The only way you're going to make it is if you get lucky and they see you and give you room. It's up to the overtaking driver if the risk is worth the reward....
-mike
11-21-2012, 05:46 PM
#1091
Rennlist Member
Since we're talking about Sonoma here's a lap or 2 of me battling with Mike Skeen in the GTR during the WC race this year. We raced each other clean which was why the pass at the end actually happened and he didn't close the door (which he could have, and would have if it was the end of the race). Also, if it was the end of the race, after my initial dive to the inside of 7 at the start of the video, I would have pushed him out into the dirt entering the esses (I actually was 2 wheels off in the dirt coming out of 7.. lol). But since it was early in the race, the risk wasn't worth it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug3yWZqzJA0
With equal cars and no mistakes, the only way I've found to pass someone under braking is to decide early on that you're ok with them turning in on you (resulting in contact). The only way you're going to make it is if you get lucky and they see you and give you room. It's up to the overtaking driver if the risk is worth the reward....
-mike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug3yWZqzJA0
With equal cars and no mistakes, the only way I've found to pass someone under braking is to decide early on that you're ok with them turning in on you (resulting in contact). The only way you're going to make it is if you get lucky and they see you and give you room. It's up to the overtaking driver if the risk is worth the reward....
-mike
prior lap on turn 7, also what Winders was talking about. you get along side, he sees you (to your point so they dont turn in on you) and then hope you can hang on with a disrupted line, which you couldnt as the GTR just pushed on through.
what you could have done at turn 7 since you had a HUGE advange there under braking, was to slow even further, so that you didnt go so deep into the turn (you had that much of an advantage to do this) , then, he would not be able to then turn into you either, and then wouldnt be able to get on the inside of you for the exit of 7.
I agree, with equal cars, under braking is the more likely the way to make a pass work. getting up passed their door so that you are clearly there, will keep them from turning on into you. driving deeper with them along side of you , but not behind, allows you to control the turn, and then dart to the apex or later apex so they cant get underneath you and pass you right back.
great footage by the way. awesome job in the race too! Nice to see you finally get some competition!
12-06-2012, 06:39 PM
#1092
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Last weekend, I did some advanced driver coaching at the Lone Star Region PCA event at TWS. I had the opportunity to drive a number of cars at speed, and 4 very different ones stood out:
-Spec996 that I have driven & helped set up in the past, but this time with a very different set up than the last time I drove it
-BMW E92 M3 V-8 with some suspension modifications, partial cage/seats/harnesses, and sticky tires
-997.2 GT2RS with MOAR POWER (but dead-as-a-doornail cycled out Hoosiers) compared to the last time I drove it
-mid 80's Carrera fully cages track car on RA1's
Clearly, these are very, very different cars. In some cases I was giving rides. In others, getting hot lap data (as best one can in a DE) and helping enhance car set up after getting a feel for the car. In all cases, I had to get to pace in just a couple of laps.
The reason I mention this is that I am often asked how to get to pace immediately when hopping into the driver's seat of a wide variety of cars.
One of the things that helps me quickly assess a car's characteristics is to do a lot of gas/left foot brake/gas/left foot brake during the warm up lap. Not only does this warm the tires (swinging the car from side to side Alonso-style doesn't) and brakes, but it also give me a really good sense for how the car will behave under trail braking. I am a big fan of trail braking to help the car point more easily...but some cars reward trail braking a lot more than others. Another thing I will do on warm up lap is--after a few corners--turn in briskly for a constant-radius corner. This helps me learn what the front & rear ends of the car do on turn in.
Then, after warm up, I see how difficult it is for the car to reach apexes using classic lines.I see how well the car responds to slow hands and gentle early turn in versus more crisp inputs. I gradually back off brake pressure in brake zones to see how well the car responds to a balanced chassis on faster turn in.
etc.
-Spec996 that I have driven & helped set up in the past, but this time with a very different set up than the last time I drove it
-BMW E92 M3 V-8 with some suspension modifications, partial cage/seats/harnesses, and sticky tires
-997.2 GT2RS with MOAR POWER (but dead-as-a-doornail cycled out Hoosiers) compared to the last time I drove it
-mid 80's Carrera fully cages track car on RA1's
Clearly, these are very, very different cars. In some cases I was giving rides. In others, getting hot lap data (as best one can in a DE) and helping enhance car set up after getting a feel for the car. In all cases, I had to get to pace in just a couple of laps.
The reason I mention this is that I am often asked how to get to pace immediately when hopping into the driver's seat of a wide variety of cars.
One of the things that helps me quickly assess a car's characteristics is to do a lot of gas/left foot brake/gas/left foot brake during the warm up lap. Not only does this warm the tires (swinging the car from side to side Alonso-style doesn't) and brakes, but it also give me a really good sense for how the car will behave under trail braking. I am a big fan of trail braking to help the car point more easily...but some cars reward trail braking a lot more than others. Another thing I will do on warm up lap is--after a few corners--turn in briskly for a constant-radius corner. This helps me learn what the front & rear ends of the car do on turn in.
Then, after warm up, I see how difficult it is for the car to reach apexes using classic lines.I see how well the car responds to slow hands and gentle early turn in versus more crisp inputs. I gradually back off brake pressure in brake zones to see how well the car responds to a balanced chassis on faster turn in.
etc.
12-07-2012, 01:45 PM
#1093
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Dave
Thanks for your time at TWS look forward to working with you at COTA. The ride with you in the Gt2 helped show me my cars capabailities. I'll keep working on the thing we touched on.
Thanks for your time at TWS look forward to working with you at COTA. The ride with you in the Gt2 helped show me my cars capabailities. I'll keep working on the thing we touched on.
12-07-2012, 05:37 PM
#1094
Last weekend, I did some advanced driver coaching at the Lone Star Region PCA event at TWS. I had the opportunity to drive a number of cars at speed, and 4 very different ones stood out:
-Spec996 that I have driven & helped set up in the past, but this time with a very different set up than the last time I drove it
-BMW E92 M3 V-8 with some suspension modifications, partial cage/seats/harnesses, and sticky tires
-997.2 GT2RS with MOAR POWER (but dead-as-a-doornail cycled out Hoosiers) compared to the last time I drove it
-mid 80's Carrera fully cages track car on RA1's
Clearly, these are very, very different cars. In some cases I was giving rides. In others, getting hot lap data (as best one can in a DE) and helping enhance car set up after getting a feel for the car. In all cases, I had to get to pace in just a couple of laps.
The reason I mention this is that I am often asked how to get to pace immediately when hopping into the driver's seat of a wide variety of cars.
One of the things that helps me quickly assess a car's characteristics is to do a lot of gas/left foot brake/gas/left foot brake during the warm up lap. Not only does this warm the tires (swinging the car from side to side Alonso-style doesn't) and brakes, but it also give me a really good sense for how the car will behave under trail braking. I am a big fan of trail braking to help the car point more easily...but some cars reward trail braking a lot more than others. Another thing I will do on warm up lap is--after a few corners--turn in briskly for a constant-radius corner. This helps me learn what the front & rear ends of the car do on turn in.
Then, after warm up, I see how difficult it is for the car to reach apexes using classic lines.I see how well the car responds to slow hands and gentle early turn in versus more crisp inputs. I gradually back off brake pressure in brake zones to see how well the car responds to a balanced chassis on faster turn in.
etc.
-Spec996 that I have driven & helped set up in the past, but this time with a very different set up than the last time I drove it
-BMW E92 M3 V-8 with some suspension modifications, partial cage/seats/harnesses, and sticky tires
-997.2 GT2RS with MOAR POWER (but dead-as-a-doornail cycled out Hoosiers) compared to the last time I drove it
-mid 80's Carrera fully cages track car on RA1's
Clearly, these are very, very different cars. In some cases I was giving rides. In others, getting hot lap data (as best one can in a DE) and helping enhance car set up after getting a feel for the car. In all cases, I had to get to pace in just a couple of laps.
The reason I mention this is that I am often asked how to get to pace immediately when hopping into the driver's seat of a wide variety of cars.
One of the things that helps me quickly assess a car's characteristics is to do a lot of gas/left foot brake/gas/left foot brake during the warm up lap. Not only does this warm the tires (swinging the car from side to side Alonso-style doesn't) and brakes, but it also give me a really good sense for how the car will behave under trail braking. I am a big fan of trail braking to help the car point more easily...but some cars reward trail braking a lot more than others. Another thing I will do on warm up lap is--after a few corners--turn in briskly for a constant-radius corner. This helps me learn what the front & rear ends of the car do on turn in.
Then, after warm up, I see how difficult it is for the car to reach apexes using classic lines.I see how well the car responds to slow hands and gentle early turn in versus more crisp inputs. I gradually back off brake pressure in brake zones to see how well the car responds to a balanced chassis on faster turn in.
etc.
12-07-2012, 08:03 PM
#1095
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 12-08-2012 at 11:37 PM.