Veloce Raptor

I agree with both Sean and Bob. Very good topic...

Sean F

My point being that the rigidity of the curriculum can have real negative consequences on safety. Using a one size fits all methodology creates unintended consequences.

We don't really teach them about balance and weight transfer and how to feel the car (and feel what's right for the car), we teach them about linear inputs and line. The consequence is that they rigidly stick to that approach even when the car is about to spin. It's what we've taught them - linear and late.

What we really need for the more advanced driver before they solo (yellow in our region) is a curriculum that teaches them to drive the car, not the line. They need to be able to recognize the impact that their inputs have on the car so they can learn to judge for themselves the best inputs and line for the car and conditions.

We bring them right to the point where they're too fast for what we've taught them and then make them solo without the skills to get to the next level. Just strikes me as odd. Feel like with my yellow students I'm breaking a lot of bad habits that we've ingrained in them.

winders

Sean,

Let's take a step back for a second. If drivers are using late apex lines *AND* are upsetting the balance of their cars while using those lines, they are not driving those lines properly. It's not that late apex lines are unsafe. It's clear that late apex lines are the safest approach because they offer the driver the most outs when mistakes are made.

Having said that, I completely agree that many drivers hang on to those late apex lines far too long. It would appear that the PCA instructor program does not have a real plan for drivers as they gain skills and experience.

Scott

Bob Rouleau

Scott, it isn't the instructor training program, any senior instructor can help a driver advance. Rather it is the fact that we are all busy with the novices and don't have a lot of time to spend with drivers ready to take the next step.

Sean, I can only speak for my region but we spend a lot of time with new drivers on balance and "feel". The fact that the "school" line favors a later apex does not change doing what we can to teach a newcomer to develop a feel for what his/her car is doing and telling him. Rain days are a big help when it comes to getting a novice tuned in to the signals the car is providing.

When we are asked by a solo driver to help, depending on the skill level the driver demonstrates, we then teach more advanced techniques like trail braking, more gentle but continued turn-in (earlier apex and not "squaring off" the initial turn-in) etc.

It would be nice to have an event with no beginners so we could concentrate on the folks who are solo in the middle run groups. Maybe some day

Best,

mglobe

I can't speak for other regions, but Lone Star has an advanced instructor program, of which VR and I are members. The AI program's purpose is to work solely with the advanced drivers. We teach more aggressive and varied lines, left foot braking, trail braking, racing skills,... In addition, Dave runs classroom sessions for our top run group where he addresses these and many other topics including data acquisition and analysis.

Veloce Raptor

As mglobe says above, we do teach them this here (LSR and Maverick).

winders

Well, that's what I get for taking someone's comments about what they experience in their area as being representative for all PCA regions. I know better, too. Because we don't really have that problem with the instructors here in Zone 7. I probably should qualify that statement as well. Because I think only a subset of the instructors are qualified to work with advanced drivers. But that is how it should be.

Thanks,

Scott

ProCoach

Sean, I agree strongly with the points you've made, that I've put in bold above.

First, I think that teaching rote over comprehension of concepts is not good. It's why you have to "break bad habits" later on. Your desire, from the beginning, should be to "teach them to drive the car."

Most drivers benefit, at some point, from a curriculum individually tailored to them after a serious evaluation of their strengths and potential areas for improvement, but that's another topic.

I DO think that the line IS important, because without it, there's no consistency.

Without the line, there's no way to gauge instantaneously the "go (or) no-go" evaluation of a good or bad entry speed or trajectory. Thanks to Ron Zitza for that "pearl of wisdom" methodology.

Without saying that there is one line that should be taught, there certainly are "best practices" that would allow drivers to learn a consistent path around the course, consistent and high targets for performance in braking, cornering and throttle application and finally, consistent use of the FULL width of the track (except for known throwaway corners).

I agree with your main points, however. I spend a large portion of my time with clients undoing the damage that an overwrought CI placed in their brains early on in their DE career!

Sean F

I think I didn't do a good job explaining myself. I'm not talking about solo drivers and I'm definitely not talking about advanced drivers. And, I'm not talking about a little late, safe apex.

I'm talking about instructed drivers approaching solo. We teach them Brake, Off, Turn, Squeeze (in that order and sequential). And we teach them a late apex (with a cone). They start to get faster and they start to compress all those inputs and combining them with a late apex creates a problem. They end up being very late on the late apex because they think being later on braking makes them faster and they know they should never trailbrake (because we teach them not to) so they get all the braking done very late and turn in very aggressively and are desperate to make it to the late apex which they are now very late on and out of shape.

If you guys don't think it's happening in your regions, maybe you're doing something different than teaching BOTS with a late apex to the instructed groups. But, that's the PCA way.

comatb

Sean, you state "Brake, Off, Turn, Squeeze", as PCA requires. I am not teaching new students any trail braking, however the transition from the "Brake to the Off" is key to keeping the car balanced. By that I mean the transition from full braking which has complete weight transfer to the front wheels to the measured release of the brake as the "Turn" input(I cal it initiate the turn and feel the weight transfer) starts moving weight to the outside front tire. Then I use "continue to turn to the apex". Yes it is one motion but help the student understand the portions of the input. As the weight transfer moves completely to the outside front and rear wheels. There is no "Squeeze" until the driver is certain that the car will be at the apex and correctly positioned to make the best exit possible.

Sorry for the length. Thoughts and opinions are appreciated.

Bill

cello

^Not speaking for Sean, but I think his point is about-to-be newly solo'd drivers don't know how to turn your teaching into 'faster' after you're gone. Once they are on their own, the usual technique is to revert to late-brake, over-slow, crab and scrub speed to apex, mash the throttle and ..... do it again and again, 'groundhogs-day'-like. And then wonder why they aren't improving.

There's a blind spot at the intermediate solo level. In a perfect world, Instructors would be randomly jumping in their cars, assessing regression and moving techniques forward on an individual basis. Usually too few Instructors are available, unfortunately, and they are already worked to death (here in the NE at least). When Bob and Larry were looking to do their thing I emailed Track Chairs in support for that very reason. But, as concerns paid-for coaching, "you can lead a horse to water,..."

mglobe

This discussion surprises me relative to what I know from the Texas regions. Our solo drivers all have instructors assigned to them. We make sure we are in their cars on a regular basis, keep notes on them, and help them progress towards more advanced skills. Is this not the norm?

comatb

Upper Canada Region gives new students a log book that each instructor makes notes in. The student must keep this log book in their car so that the next instructor has a frame of reference as to the students skills and weak points. The log book also lists the run groups and the necessary skills needed to progress into each group.

bobt993

I agree with Sean that the path is troublesome at times in how to help a driver get better as they move up ladder. The DE environment is ideal for adapting techniques to overcome bad habits. I had a driver turned racer who really wanted to get faster immediately and it made for frantic sessions of late braking, early mashing the throttle in every corner. This method often leads to off track excursions or worse. On almost every track there are at least 2 turns which are slow enough and include good safety margins to "re-learn" car entry and balance. It was after he removed the self-imposed demands and started focusing on what the car needed to do that he has become smoother, safer, and ultimately faster.

ProCoach

^^GREAT advice^^