ASK THE COACH
#1981
Burning Brakes
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
-mike
#1982
Burning Brakes
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I welcome input on this video - please be critical (I need it).
https://youtu.be/29u7cu_Xmo8
Quick backstory.. first DE in April 2012 (997.1 4S) - tracked that OL and DE until June of 2014 (roughly 40 days total).
Built a Spec Boxster last year. 2 DEs and some OL before first Club Race 8/2014 (High Plains). Other than that race weekend, rest of the year was OL and DE.
2015 has been club race at TWS (March), NASA race at HPR (April) and club race a Hastings (last weekend). Rest of the year will have 4 additional club racing events, 4 additional NASA events, and 5 WRL events (endurance racing).
I feel as if my skills are improving greatly (much more comfortable at the limit), and managed a podium last weekend (truth be told - if the usual SPB folks were there, that wouldn't have happened - but from a time and relative normal competition standpoint, I have moved from a backmarker to the front of the "B" racers in SPB).
My most obvious flaws (to me) are...not pushing hard enough in high-speed turns, and my shiftwork is either lazy or too aggressive/hard.
Hit me with your best. Thanks.
https://youtu.be/29u7cu_Xmo8
Quick backstory.. first DE in April 2012 (997.1 4S) - tracked that OL and DE until June of 2014 (roughly 40 days total).
Built a Spec Boxster last year. 2 DEs and some OL before first Club Race 8/2014 (High Plains). Other than that race weekend, rest of the year was OL and DE.
2015 has been club race at TWS (March), NASA race at HPR (April) and club race a Hastings (last weekend). Rest of the year will have 4 additional club racing events, 4 additional NASA events, and 5 WRL events (endurance racing).
I feel as if my skills are improving greatly (much more comfortable at the limit), and managed a podium last weekend (truth be told - if the usual SPB folks were there, that wouldn't have happened - but from a time and relative normal competition standpoint, I have moved from a backmarker to the front of the "B" racers in SPB).
My most obvious flaws (to me) are...not pushing hard enough in high-speed turns, and my shiftwork is either lazy or too aggressive/hard.
Hit me with your best. Thanks.
#1983
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Lifting this from the passing in the eases thread so as to not derail that thread:
I was there with Chin last week, and noticed that my data consistently showed I was losing 1-2 mph climbing the eases. Function of miata + elevation change or am I lifting a little there without realizing it?
WGI Chin 05192015 - YouTube
I was there with Chin last week, and noticed that my data consistently showed I was losing 1-2 mph climbing the eases. Function of miata + elevation change or am I lifting a little there without realizing it?
WGI Chin 05192015 - YouTube
That's miata for you.
Here are very fast spec miata guys in a good bump draft maintaining the speed through the esses. Solo they wold have lost a little bit
#1984
Rennlist Member
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Thanks all. Always appreciate the thoughts.
Hard to say without throttle position read on the data, but I have seen SM's that carry good speed out of T1 and stretch gears down the hill and through T2 not lose speed up the hill. There is a flattening, though.
Even if the car loses a TINY bit but your foot is ALL THE WAY DOWN into, through T2 and up the hill, you are not going to introduce instability.
Where I see the issue is in more powerful cars, including SPB, E and F Stock and GTB1 cars.
I've had too many people have the light bulb go on (and consequently feel better about doing it over and over again) when they are able to keep it down (or above 85%) and the car feels BETTER in the transition from turning right to turning left over the tunnel.
It's NOT just confined to what your right foot is doing going up the hill, it's from T1 onwards to the brake point for the Bus Stop... It just FEELS better.
Even if the car loses a TINY bit but your foot is ALL THE WAY DOWN into, through T2 and up the hill, you are not going to introduce instability.
Where I see the issue is in more powerful cars, including SPB, E and F Stock and GTB1 cars.
I've had too many people have the light bulb go on (and consequently feel better about doing it over and over again) when they are able to keep it down (or above 85%) and the car feels BETTER in the transition from turning right to turning left over the tunnel.
It's NOT just confined to what your right foot is doing going up the hill, it's from T1 onwards to the brake point for the Bus Stop... It just FEELS better.
That's miata for you.
Here are very fast spec miata guys in a good bump draft maintaining the speed through the esses. Solo they wold have lost a little bit
Watkins Glen - Last Chance Enduro - 2012 - YouTube
Here are very fast spec miata guys in a good bump draft maintaining the speed through the esses. Solo they wold have lost a little bit
Watkins Glen - Last Chance Enduro - 2012 - YouTube
#1985
I'm in....
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
That's miata for you.
Here are very fast spec miata guys in a good bump draft maintaining the speed through the esses. Solo they wold have lost a little bit
Watkins Glen - Last Chance Enduro - 2012 - YouTube
Here are very fast spec miata guys in a good bump draft maintaining the speed through the esses. Solo they wold have lost a little bit
Watkins Glen - Last Chance Enduro - 2012 - YouTube
#1986
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Lifting this from the passing in the eases thread so as to not derail that thread:
I was there with Chin last week, and noticed that my data consistently showed I was losing 1-2 mph climbing the eases. Function of miata + elevation change or am I lifting a little there without realizing it?
WGI Chin 05192015 - YouTube
I was there with Chin last week, and noticed that my data consistently showed I was losing 1-2 mph climbing the eases. Function of miata + elevation change or am I lifting a little there without realizing it?
WGI Chin 05192015 - YouTube
If I do the climbing esses correctly, my reward is to not losing any speed.
I'll dig up a video and upload it.
#1987
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
If you look at the video at 7:37 as the car is moving from right to left at the top of the esses you can see my hands relax on the wheel as I let the car go where it wants to.
Hope this helps...
If the video isn't working, try
#1989
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Let's talk about racing for a minute. This topic came up in another thread: full course yellows.
I am guessing we have all seen club racers who lag back from the car ahead of them under full course yellows. it's terribly frustrating if we are behind them because we can't pass them, yet we watch as our chances to resume the race with the pack diminish as we fall further and further behind.
First of all, to the laggers...what are you doing??? Did your brain go into neutral? There is a race about to resume and you are no longer in it. it is your responsibility to "mind the gap" as they say in Britain. Why would you NOT want to be right on the bumper of the guy ahead at the restart? i would MUCH rather pick up a couple of positions on the restart than to have to chase people down from 300' back at full race pace. To be blunt, if you are unwilling or unable to stay with the car ahead under fuull yellow, perhaps other sports beckon.
But what do we do if we are stuck behind such a clue-impaired person? There is not much, unfortunately. Flashing headlights and/or high beams is one way. Another is to stick your hand through your window net and wave the in-DUH-vidual forward, hoping they figure out what you mean. Another is to make sure your race car has a working horn... Weave back and forth. Wave in your windshield (but don't give the finger).
All of these are to various degrees obnoxious. Check your rules to see if any are prohibited, because the last thing anyone should do is generate a DQ for themselves due to the oblivious actions of someone ahead of them. But the fact of the matter is, these clowns can often ruin our races.
I am guessing we have all seen club racers who lag back from the car ahead of them under full course yellows. it's terribly frustrating if we are behind them because we can't pass them, yet we watch as our chances to resume the race with the pack diminish as we fall further and further behind.
First of all, to the laggers...what are you doing??? Did your brain go into neutral? There is a race about to resume and you are no longer in it. it is your responsibility to "mind the gap" as they say in Britain. Why would you NOT want to be right on the bumper of the guy ahead at the restart? i would MUCH rather pick up a couple of positions on the restart than to have to chase people down from 300' back at full race pace. To be blunt, if you are unwilling or unable to stay with the car ahead under fuull yellow, perhaps other sports beckon.
But what do we do if we are stuck behind such a clue-impaired person? There is not much, unfortunately. Flashing headlights and/or high beams is one way. Another is to stick your hand through your window net and wave the in-DUH-vidual forward, hoping they figure out what you mean. Another is to make sure your race car has a working horn... Weave back and forth. Wave in your windshield (but don't give the finger).
All of these are to various degrees obnoxious. Check your rules to see if any are prohibited, because the last thing anyone should do is generate a DQ for themselves due to the oblivious actions of someone ahead of them. But the fact of the matter is, these clowns can often ruin our races.
#1990
Rennlist Member
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
#1991
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Let's talk about racing for a minute. This topic came up in another thread: full course yellows.
I am guessing we have all seen club racers who lag back from the car ahead of them under full course yellows. it's terribly frustrating if we are behind them because we can't pass them, yet we watch as our chances to resume the race with the pack diminish as we fall further and further behind.
First of all, to the laggers...what are you doing??? Did your brain go into neutral? There is a race about to resume and you are no longer in it. it is your responsibility to "mind the gap" as they say in Britain. Why would you NOT want to be right on the bumper of the guy ahead at the restart? i would MUCH rather pick up a couple of positions on the restart than to have to chase people down from 300' back at full race pace. To be blunt, if you are unwilling or unable to stay with the car ahead under fuull yellow, perhaps other sports beckon.
But what do we do if we are stuck behind such a clue-impaired person? There is not much, unfortunately. Flashing headlights and/or high beams is one way. Another is to stick your hand through your window net and wave the in-DUH-vidual forward, hoping they figure out what you mean. Another is to make sure your race car has a working horn... Weave back and forth. Wave in your windshield (but don't give the finger).
All of these are to various degrees obnoxious. Check your rules to see if any are prohibited, because the last thing anyone should do is generate a DQ for themselves due to the oblivious actions of someone ahead of them. But the fact of the matter is, these clowns can often ruin our races.
I am guessing we have all seen club racers who lag back from the car ahead of them under full course yellows. it's terribly frustrating if we are behind them because we can't pass them, yet we watch as our chances to resume the race with the pack diminish as we fall further and further behind.
First of all, to the laggers...what are you doing??? Did your brain go into neutral? There is a race about to resume and you are no longer in it. it is your responsibility to "mind the gap" as they say in Britain. Why would you NOT want to be right on the bumper of the guy ahead at the restart? i would MUCH rather pick up a couple of positions on the restart than to have to chase people down from 300' back at full race pace. To be blunt, if you are unwilling or unable to stay with the car ahead under fuull yellow, perhaps other sports beckon.
But what do we do if we are stuck behind such a clue-impaired person? There is not much, unfortunately. Flashing headlights and/or high beams is one way. Another is to stick your hand through your window net and wave the in-DUH-vidual forward, hoping they figure out what you mean. Another is to make sure your race car has a working horn... Weave back and forth. Wave in your windshield (but don't give the finger).
All of these are to various degrees obnoxious. Check your rules to see if any are prohibited, because the last thing anyone should do is generate a DQ for themselves due to the oblivious actions of someone ahead of them. But the fact of the matter is, these clowns can often ruin our races.
![surrender](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/surrender.gif)
Seriously though, couldn't this be dealt with by having a maximum following distance rule, say one or two car lengths? If they drop back more than that, the following car can pass them. Add to that, the car being passed cannot compete for the position. It seems doable if a big enough problem and there are cameras everywhere for evidence. Could also do it with a double yellow minimum speed rule - especially behind the pace car.
On another note, going to "preview" MSRH tomorrow afternoon with the new ride - should be interesting. The goal there is to get below 1:55 and formulate strategery about how to instruct this weekend.
-Mike
#1992
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Re full course yellows, unless the drivers really are asleep at the wheel, I'd like to think they are lagging back to try to get a run on the car in front when the yellow drops. Unfortunately, if a lot of drivers do this, by the time you get back 10 cars or so you are way behind the leader and no one gets a run.
#1993
Instructor
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I’ve heard ad nauseam if you want to be a better driver drive a Miata. So I bought a spec Miata.
Trying to get used to heel/toe, never driven w/o ABS power steering, etc. First weekend was this past weekend at TWS.
I’ve been poking around the Miata websites. So far I’ve found a lot of info on technical and mechanical discussion but less on driving technique.
You guys were so helpful with the soap and tape on my windshield, etc. suggestions. I was reading some of Ross Bentley’s stuff on momentum vs point and shoot driving.
Any tips from going from a somewhat mid HP (and almost 1000 lb heavier) car to a momentum car, or identifying the limit, or driving style to increase the speed at the limit? Obviously light brake. Some of the tips I heard this weekend were try to drive the out and checkered laps w/ no brake to develop the feel (which I try to do in M3 and GT3 – but of course you don’t want to be the a$$hat going off in the out or checkered lap finding the limit), and when you come around turn 1-2 feel the car settle on the bump stops and take off from there. Also scrubbing speed with steering vs brakes.
I have Andy Lally’s laps at TWS in a past reincarnation of this car on Traqmate and am attempting to compare to mine (not used to Traqmate). He was about 6 seconds faster than me. Our braking and acceleration points look similar, but he uses quicker more forceful brake and carries more speed through the turns with more lateral Gs. And his shifting is faster.
I was running on 100 treadwear worn rain tires from 2011 (throw away tires in case I locked up brakes and flat spotted). Any advice for carrying speed through the corners other than push it til you feel the limit, and try not to go over?
Heel/toe – I was trying to be quicker about it, but it seems the more I try to rush it the more likely I am to mess it up. I’ve been sitting in the garage practicing, but with the engine off it doesn’t give you much feedback. ;-)
Overall I find the Miata to be a harsh, unforgiving, unsympathetic teacher. I like it.
Trying to get used to heel/toe, never driven w/o ABS power steering, etc. First weekend was this past weekend at TWS.
I’ve been poking around the Miata websites. So far I’ve found a lot of info on technical and mechanical discussion but less on driving technique.
You guys were so helpful with the soap and tape on my windshield, etc. suggestions. I was reading some of Ross Bentley’s stuff on momentum vs point and shoot driving.
Any tips from going from a somewhat mid HP (and almost 1000 lb heavier) car to a momentum car, or identifying the limit, or driving style to increase the speed at the limit? Obviously light brake. Some of the tips I heard this weekend were try to drive the out and checkered laps w/ no brake to develop the feel (which I try to do in M3 and GT3 – but of course you don’t want to be the a$$hat going off in the out or checkered lap finding the limit), and when you come around turn 1-2 feel the car settle on the bump stops and take off from there. Also scrubbing speed with steering vs brakes.
I have Andy Lally’s laps at TWS in a past reincarnation of this car on Traqmate and am attempting to compare to mine (not used to Traqmate). He was about 6 seconds faster than me. Our braking and acceleration points look similar, but he uses quicker more forceful brake and carries more speed through the turns with more lateral Gs. And his shifting is faster.
I was running on 100 treadwear worn rain tires from 2011 (throw away tires in case I locked up brakes and flat spotted). Any advice for carrying speed through the corners other than push it til you feel the limit, and try not to go over?
Heel/toe – I was trying to be quicker about it, but it seems the more I try to rush it the more likely I am to mess it up. I’ve been sitting in the garage practicing, but with the engine off it doesn’t give you much feedback. ;-)
Overall I find the Miata to be a harsh, unforgiving, unsympathetic teacher. I like it.
![thumbup](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/thumbup.gif)
#1994
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I am guessing Andy was assuring he was on the brakes for very little real estate, in order to maximize his vMin and minimize the number of feet he was at or near vMin.
As for "pushing it"...I dunno...I guess I would rather learn how the chassis feels when it is settled in a corner, and then start braking less & less to raise the speeds it carries, settled. through the corners. Incrementally carrying more speed & lateral G's through the corners.
As for "pushing it"...I dunno...I guess I would rather learn how the chassis feels when it is settled in a corner, and then start braking less & less to raise the speeds it carries, settled. through the corners. Incrementally carrying more speed & lateral G's through the corners.
#1995
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Any tips from going from a somewhat mid HP (and almost 1000 lb heavier) car to a momentum car, or identifying the limit, or driving style to increase the speed at the limit? Obviously light brake. Some of the tips I heard this weekend were try to drive the out and checkered laps w/ no brake to develop the feel (which I try to do in M3 and GT3 – but of course you don’t want to be the a$$hat going off in the out or checkered lap finding the limit), and when you come around turn 1-2 feel the car settle on the bump stops and take off from there. Also scrubbing speed with steering vs brakes.
I have Andy Lally’s laps at TWS in a past reincarnation of this car on Traqmate and am attempting to compare to mine (not used to Traqmate). He was about 6 seconds faster than me. Our braking and acceleration points look similar, but he uses quicker more forceful brake and carries more speed through the turns with more lateral Gs. And his shifting is faster.
I have Andy Lally’s laps at TWS in a past reincarnation of this car on Traqmate and am attempting to compare to mine (not used to Traqmate). He was about 6 seconds faster than me. Our braking and acceleration points look similar, but he uses quicker more forceful brake and carries more speed through the turns with more lateral Gs. And his shifting is faster.
Your observations about Lally driving the Miata are identical to Lally driving my old E36 street E36 M3. He carried lots more speed into turns, used steering to precisely scrub speed while keeping the car balanced (than using the brakes), and kept the car on the edge all the time. From the passenger seat the sensation was like nothing I've ever felt in a car - it's hard to put it into words. Almost a floating sensation or possibly like the feeling when shushing down a mountain while snow skiing and the car was happy all the time.
One thing Lally shared with us a dinner was that it's important to anticipate what the car is going to to do before the control input is made. I'll put the video below, but taken at his word, it means most of those control inputs you see are not reactionary. Indeed, on lap 1 at T3, you can see him put a large steering input in after track out - I'm convinced he was calibrating himself to the car since he had never driven it before.
Another thing to keep in mind, last weekend the air temps where literally 100F, that Lally data was collected with temps in the 50s, as it was November.
I was running on 100 treadwear worn rain tires from 2011 (throw away tires in case I locked up brakes and flat spotted). Any advice for carrying speed through the corners other than push it til you feel the limit, and try not to go over?
Heel/toe – I was trying to be quicker about it, but it seems the more I try to rush it the more likely I am to mess it up. I’ve been sitting in the garage practicing, but with the engine off it doesn’t give you much feedback. ;-)
Overall I find the Miata to be a harsh, unforgiving, unsympathetic teacher. I like it.![thumbup](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/thumbup.gif)
Heel/toe – I was trying to be quicker about it, but it seems the more I try to rush it the more likely I am to mess it up. I’ve been sitting in the garage practicing, but with the engine off it doesn’t give you much feedback. ;-)
Overall I find the Miata to be a harsh, unforgiving, unsympathetic teacher. I like it.
![thumbup](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/thumbup.gif)
WRT heel toe, make sure the pedals are optimum. Change them if necessary to fit your feet and foot mechanics. Sometimes this can vary from two identical cars. I required a 7/8" spacer on the brake pedal of my street M3 to keep it above the gas at full application. The track M3 is perfect w/o a spacer. It's your race car, make it fit you. You want the brake pedal to stay above the gas. Once you have that, consider altering the pedal shape. And you just need practice, the DCT in the M3 didn't give you any of that.
I know it's a cliche, but I think all you need are seat time and less brakes, more gas. Get rides/instruction from our local Miata hot shoes. You were doing well enough that there was paddock talk about your first weekend in a Miata and it was very complementary. I'll send you my Lally data if you want it (it is from an AIM solo).
-Mike