ASK THE COACH
#1636
Yes, food for thought. I saw the whole thing unfold from the start and could have slowed down a lot more and I didn't have anybody behind me. In the previous two laps he had locked the right rear in that corner as well.
It surprised me when he moved, but I put myself in a position where that surprise could have had more serious consequences than necessary. Didn't think myself as a sufferer of red mist, but perhaps just a bit.
-Mike
It surprised me when he moved, but I put myself in a position where that surprise could have had more serious consequences than necessary. Didn't think myself as a sufferer of red mist, but perhaps just a bit.
-Mike
#1637
It was a bit more egregious than I remembered it. He could see down to T12, and should have known a car was behind him, so a pause long enough for the trailing car to get by would have helped. Also could have slowly backed up onto the inside dirt or did the same maneuver he did only very slowly.
The big gripe I have is he was so unpredictable. I should have anticipated he may pull forward to get his car righted very much like anticipating a car will cross the blend line when coming out of the pit when most often they don't.
Yes, food for thought. I saw the whole thing unfold from the start and could have slowed down a lot more and I didn't have anybody behind me. In the previous two laps he had locked the right rear in that corner as well.
It surprised me when he moved, but I put myself in a position where that surprise could have had more serious consequences than necessary. Didn't think myself as a sufferer of red mist, but perhaps just a bit.
-Mike
The big gripe I have is he was so unpredictable. I should have anticipated he may pull forward to get his car righted very much like anticipating a car will cross the blend line when coming out of the pit when most often they don't.
Yes, food for thought. I saw the whole thing unfold from the start and could have slowed down a lot more and I didn't have anybody behind me. In the previous two laps he had locked the right rear in that corner as well.
It surprised me when he moved, but I put myself in a position where that surprise could have had more serious consequences than necessary. Didn't think myself as a sufferer of red mist, but perhaps just a bit.
-Mike
I think he should have reversed off track, would have been easy to do long before you got to him. As far as that goes, you should have seen/heard him spinning in the first couple seconds of that video and you had plenty of time to get to a walking pace by the time you got to him.... no need for any evasive thinking.
1- you rarely ever back up on a race track. That is unpredicatable
2- the direction of the nose of the spinning car is 95% chance the direction he will go from a near stop assuming he has regained control. A predictable action is that he will go forward.
3- passing where minimizing risk is just what is done. What is more risk free than passing behind him if he is stopped broadside? His nose is a threat to the passer and passer must assume he will not move into passers path. Therefore, if the passer is going track right he has increased the likelihood of contact with the spinner.
4- the broadside spinner blocks the entire track and a passer has to guess whether to pass in front or behind him. A smart person would pass behind him even if he is dead stopped because, who backs up on racetracks?
5- the spinner moving track right opens up 2/3rds of the track width just by moving forward. He has done passer a favor and directed the passer on where to go. He was completely predictable from my point of view.
6- the spinner protects himself because his car can take an impact much better fore or aft than broadside and presents a smaller target.
OK I'm ready to be corrected because I don't want to be that guy who causes problems.
#1639
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From: All Ate Up With Motor
#1640
Interesting case. I learned that video does not tell the whole story and the real-time 1st person view of the incident may be quite different from what we see in the 20 sec video. I guess you guys are glad I don't race with you because I would have done the same thing the spinning car would have done. Here are the reasons:
1- you rarely ever back up on a race track. That is unpredicatable
2- the direction of the nose of the spinning car is 95% chance the direction he will go from a near stop assuming he has regained control. A predictable action is that he will go forward.
3- passing where minimizing risk is just what is done. What is more risk free than passing behind him if he is stopped broadside? His nose is a threat to the passer and passer must assume he will not move into passers path. Therefore, if the passer is going track right he has increased the likelihood of contact with the spinner.
4- the broadside spinner blocks the entire track and a passer has to guess whether to pass in front or behind him. A smart person would pass behind him even if he is dead stopped because, who backs up on racetracks?
5- the spinner moving track right opens up 2/3rds of the track width just by moving forward. He has done passer a favor and directed the passer on where to go. He was completely predictable from my point of view.
6- the spinner protects himself because his car can take an impact much better fore or aft than broadside and presents a smaller target.
OK I'm ready to be corrected because I don't want to be that guy who causes problems.
1- you rarely ever back up on a race track. That is unpredicatable
2- the direction of the nose of the spinning car is 95% chance the direction he will go from a near stop assuming he has regained control. A predictable action is that he will go forward.
3- passing where minimizing risk is just what is done. What is more risk free than passing behind him if he is stopped broadside? His nose is a threat to the passer and passer must assume he will not move into passers path. Therefore, if the passer is going track right he has increased the likelihood of contact with the spinner.
4- the broadside spinner blocks the entire track and a passer has to guess whether to pass in front or behind him. A smart person would pass behind him even if he is dead stopped because, who backs up on racetracks?
5- the spinner moving track right opens up 2/3rds of the track width just by moving forward. He has done passer a favor and directed the passer on where to go. He was completely predictable from my point of view.
6- the spinner protects himself because his car can take an impact much better fore or aft than broadside and presents a smaller target.
OK I'm ready to be corrected because I don't want to be that guy who causes problems.
being predictable during the crash is what saves your problem from being someone else's. letting cars spin and then shoot across the track backward is totally preventable, and causes most incidents, especially in DE groups where they are most common.
regarding this section of track and the incident. i think the driver did the right thing too. he had time to get moving, and did it in a way that didnt effect anyone, and certainly didnt close any escape paths for approaching drivers.
If im racing with you and you have this kind of incident, and deal with it like was shown on the video, you will get a wave from me!
now, if he did that when i was 50 feet from him, as i would be passing on the right where most of the room would be.... we would have a problem and probably words in the pits. I'm sure he saw there was no one coming, and proceeded. I think if this kind of incident bothers you , you are in the wrong sport, or a little more seat time to get use to the temperature in the pool!
Mk
#1641
First off I wanted to say that this has been a fascinating read thus far and I think its great this thread has gone on so long!
Now on to a specific question for ProCoach (or others in general):
Peter, I was perusing your website last night and found your "basic training" pdf. One of the sentences in there reads, "Those who brake earlier and easier while getting their downshifts done and out of the way are back on power sooner."
This is somewhat at odds with a few other threads I've read in two ways. First, the early and easy braking. I understand that this ultimately preserves corner entry speed by allowing the driver to absolutely fine tune their final moments of braking and turn-in. However isn't the end goal to truncate the braking zone as much as possible while still maintaining the vehicle's balance and the driver's ability to smoothly modulate/remove brake pressure? It would seem that early/easy braking is a good way to start but as you progress that slowly gets supplanted by harder/later braking right up until the point where you start upsetting the chassis etc. Help me understand when one is better than the other etc.
Second, getting downshifting out of the way quickly. I suppose this has more to do with your car's gearing and whatnot during that particular corner but I've heard many folks say to focus on braking and then as you begin to come off the brake get down to the proper gear. In the pdf statement do you mean get your shifting done Well before turn in or just in enough time that it isnt affecting you?
Thanks!
Now on to a specific question for ProCoach (or others in general):
Peter, I was perusing your website last night and found your "basic training" pdf. One of the sentences in there reads, "Those who brake earlier and easier while getting their downshifts done and out of the way are back on power sooner."
This is somewhat at odds with a few other threads I've read in two ways. First, the early and easy braking. I understand that this ultimately preserves corner entry speed by allowing the driver to absolutely fine tune their final moments of braking and turn-in. However isn't the end goal to truncate the braking zone as much as possible while still maintaining the vehicle's balance and the driver's ability to smoothly modulate/remove brake pressure? It would seem that early/easy braking is a good way to start but as you progress that slowly gets supplanted by harder/later braking right up until the point where you start upsetting the chassis etc. Help me understand when one is better than the other etc.
Second, getting downshifting out of the way quickly. I suppose this has more to do with your car's gearing and whatnot during that particular corner but I've heard many folks say to focus on braking and then as you begin to come off the brake get down to the proper gear. In the pdf statement do you mean get your shifting done Well before turn in or just in enough time that it isnt affecting you?
Thanks!
#1643
PCA never does, but when its really hot, the TWS PDS events (which are HPDE only) sometimes allow it. TX afternoons at TWS in July and August can be brutally hot. At one event last year it was 108F with about 138% humidity. Well, the 138% is a joke and exaggeration, as it was only really about 125% humidity. PCA sits out TWS in July and August.
I've been known to run the A/C on the track. One of the "perks" of a dual purpose car. The A/C will work in my track car until such time as I have a tow vehicle.
-Mike
I've been known to run the A/C on the track. One of the "perks" of a dual purpose car. The A/C will work in my track car until such time as I have a tow vehicle.
-Mike
#1644
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From: All Ate Up With Motor
First, the early and easy braking. I understand that this ultimately preserves corner entry speed by allowing the driver to absolutely fine tune their final moments of braking and turn-in. However isn't the end goal to truncate the braking zone as much as possible while still maintaining the vehicle's balance and the driver's ability to smoothly modulate/remove brake pressure? It would seem that early/easy braking is a good way to start but as you progress that slowly gets supplanted by harder/later braking right up until the point where you start upsetting the chassis etc. Help me understand when one is better than the other etc.
#1645
Any example of a Northeast turn where this is especially beneficial?
#1646
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From: All Ate Up With Motor
#1647
#1648
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From: All Ate Up With Motor
#1649
#1650
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From: All Ate Up With Motor
It's easy to get wrong. I have ridden with VERY experienced drivers/racers there, and made a huge difference for them by getting them on the brakes a bit sooner and a lot softer.