sierralima

Hey Dave! Tim was over last night and we talked about this a good bit.

I'm thinking part of this is me comparing 2 cars:

In the GT3 you do most of your braking in a straight line, turn in, get on the throttle, the back end plants, and as long as you are pointed in the right direction and don't lift you are golden...life is good. Like someone said, it is like driving a Segway.

In the M3 you do most of your braking in a straight line, turn in and the car immediately feels like it is going to flip over about 5 times. So I've been doing heavy trail braking because to me the car feels more responsive at turn in with more weight on the front tires. However, the transition and getting on the throttle in the M3 feels like a huge balancing act to me.

I do realize learning to balance the M3 is making me a better driver overall....

I think the other issue is I've been so focused on working on my braking that getting on the throttle has become an afterthought. I need to focus on when can I safely get on the throttle (and then do it) and my braking points will fall more into line...I think. ;-)

I will try to find the Alex Lloyd article.

I appreciate all the input. Left to me own devices....

KaiB

And THIS is the statement of the year!

In any car, it's all about the balancing act and THIS is what we are all striving for...

hf1

Not me. I brake way past turn in and deep into most corners with my GT3, and with pretty much every other car. I'd be way slower if I had to complete most of the braking in a straight line.

kgorman

I don't think this is a fast technique or philosophy in the GT3.

I trail brake way into corners depending on the corner/complex.

Don't lift thing seems strange. Of course you lift, it's about maximizing the throttle time, min corner speed, and available grip. Not as simple as a Segway or whatever.

Veloce Raptor

Agreed...

Matt Romanowski

The don't lift part is right. Once you start feeding in throttle, on a perfect corner, you should not have to lift out of the throttle. A smooth, continual application is the goal.

sierralima

I probably didn't explain what I was trying to say very well.

I'm an intermediate driver who has driven 2 cars on the track. I'm more comfortable in the GT3 initiating throttle vs the M3 as to me when I do initiate throttle in the GT3 it feels like the back end plants and the car feels very stable through completion of the turn (unless I upset the car by lifting when I'm not supposed to).

In the M3 the braking phase feels more stable than the throttle phase as I feel like there is less sway in the M3 with the weight transferred to the front of the car vs during throttle application where the back end tends to get loose if I'm too heavy on the throttle. To me the M3 feels harder to balance in the throttle phase than the GT3, so I'm being hesitant in my throttle application in the M3.

But thinking more about this - the #1 thing I've been working on last few sessions is not over slowing the car, and smooth release of the brakes. I think I've become so focused on braking that getting on the throttle has become almost an afterthought.

My thought is next event focus on the point at which I want to start throttle application and make sure I get my braking finished by then. I haven't been giving myself a braking "deadline" and have been playing with the feel of trail braking and balancing through this phase which I think may be delaying my application of throttle.

Does this make sense to anyone but me? ;-)

kgorman

Actually it makes tons of sense now that you restate it.

Based on what you are saying, my advice is to get a data logger like the aim solo and start to work on min corner speeds. There is probably more grip available than you think. Get a coach or hot shoe to lay down a faster trace. Then try to work up to those min corner speeds. It's a quest be patient, but relentless.

Disclaimer; I am no pro.

ProCoach

The Solo is a great, self contained tool. There is ALWAYS more grip than you think. Sometimes, it just depends on how you ask the car to creep up on that grip, without drama... But the key is to ALWAYS ask the car for MORE.

I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't think you need a coach or a "hot shoe" to lay down a faster trace. Most of the time, coaches and/or "hot shoes" are variables, just like their clients/students/acolytes are.

Yes, somebody like Jason Hart or Grant Maiman could shorten the learning curve, but it's really about YOU, and building YOUR belief systems, rather than mimicking a line on a computer screen. Drivers need background, context, knowledge and PRACTICE to achieve those levels of performance. Only then is it easier (and safer) to transcend the internal mental and experiential barriers that keep you from improving...

Drivers generate plenty of good info, even "stuck" ones. The key is to determine what your best individual performance level is and, providing the topography is working with you, duplicate that at other parts of the track.

I think you can do this overlaying lat g traces or, more importantly, gSum traces (the total measure of grip in all axis) between the two cars.

Because you're comfortable and confident in the GT3, take data from that and overlay on the M3 trace. THAT, IMO, is how you can quickly and easily find the greatest opportunity for improvement...

The last two sentences from kgorman are what it's all about, and the truth. And fun!

Matt Romanowski

I would agree with Peter in reference to finding your own limits. No one would expect they could throw a fastball like Nolan Ryan or hit like David Ortiz just because they studied videos of them and saw data and analytics of their performance. The top professional drivers have a very high level of mental preparation, muscle control, balance awareness, and more. Not every person's max level of performance is the same.

It's most important to find your max level of performance and how you can consistently achieve that level and systematically work to expand it.

Thundermoose

Post 1707 is where SierraLima shows AIM data comparison with Veloce Raptor in the car.

kgorman

Good point. I peeked at that trace a bit, you can see what I am talking about in terms of corner speeds. Sorry for missing it before. Sierralima you are all set! sorry I missed it.

One thing that I tried to explain when I was in the data logger business is to use the data to create a mental picture of success for your next track day or session. We called it a 'session plan'. Have a clear plan for what you are working on next session. Keep iterating. Visualize success. Iterate.

For instance, using your trace, take turn 5 and 8, just focus on those and work on getting to VR's speeds.

Disclaimer; I use VR as my coach too. my last session plan was all about trying to improve my min corner speeds and focus on keeping throttle % high in a couple key yet scary areas. So I am not trying to come off as a know it all. I am on my own journey.

Thundermoose

The thing I noticed was that VR gets to full throttle much quicker. Since your M3 is DCT, it may be worth playing around with left foot braking. I find that when I do that, I tend to get full throttle sooner. Here's a video of another M3 guy that is fully committed to 100% throttle. Enjoy.

sierralima

That is all quite helpful, thanks! Nice vid.... I'm going to start playing with left foot braking. It is easy in the karts. ;-)

VR and I were working on me picking up speed through corners. It is a leap of faith, but once you make it through ok the first time a few MPH faster it is easier the second time. ;-) Def need to work on more speed through 5-9 at TWS.

I haven't really looked at lateral Gs much on the AiM other than watching the friction circle now that the AiM is communicating with the SmartyCam. Need to review some physics and look closer. I can fairly consistently hit 1.1 going through most turns if I'm on it in the M3 on NT01s, but not all.

I think the sway in the M3 is what makes me hesitant on the throttle...whereas in the GT3 getting on the throttle just feels awesome (fast sweepers are another story...). We are modifying the suspension on the M3 and will have MCS dampers in the next few weeks. But regardless, I need to be able to balance the car.

At COTA next weekend I will have new subframe bushings, solid links and more solid sway bars.

I'm wondering if I feel the sway, then subconsciously add more steering input to compensate for the feeling the car is pulling in the wrong direction, which obviously unsettles the car and adds to the problem.... Less steering, more throttle seems like the answer. I can feel the M3 is more responsive if the car is balanced with more throttle on turn exit. I'm thinking it is the balance part I'm struggling with.

I won't have an instructor next weekend and it will be my first time on COTA by myself. I'm anticipating balancing problems through 1, 11, 12 and to some degree 20 with the amount of rotation needed. Although I was working on throttle steering through Rattlesnake at Cresson recently.

So much to work on...so little track time.

ProCoach

Good. LFB is a good thing, especially with SMG.

While the SC video representation of the friction circle is useful, the real measure you want to see is GSum on the strip chart, against distance. You need to look at HOW you build that most outlying sample of the friction circle by giving it a SUM number, then looking for dips or ebbs, then a rise again. That would confirm your analysis, which I think is correct.

VR should be able to supply pre-event study material for COTA (mine is 17 pages long), but stop the car, turn the car and GO at T1, T11, T12, T13, T15 and T20. Corners are just SO slow...

The balancing you seek will be most evident and easiest to practice in T9, T19 and T20, IMO, but pick VR's brain, since he has worked with you.

Have fun!