Cheating in Club Racing....Why?
#61
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Peter, in the cup class, is it the private cars or the race shop ones that seem to be too fast? As long as they don't get caught, the incentive for a race shop to produce the "fastest cups" is pretty high.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#62
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Also, why are cars not checked for compliance on their maiden voyage? It seems that when someone registers a new car and gets a log book, the only thing checked is safety items. It seems like that would be a good time to also check rule compliance.
#63
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C.
#64
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Also, why are cars not checked for compliance on their maiden voyage? It seems that when someone registers a new car and gets a log book, the only thing checked is safety items. It seems like that would be a good time to also check rule compliance.
Perhaps you folks can offer some additional suggestions for what to check for.
#65
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When a new race car is presented to PCA for a log book, we check all safety items as well as class compliance items. Now, it is not feasable to disassemble a gearbox to check for gears, a shock body to check for valving, an engine to check for internal engine parts. We do have some technology to read ECUs, and a borescope which we can use to check internal engine parts like pistons, valves, crankshafts, connecting rods, gear ratios, etc. and we do that during the race weekend on selected cars. When we find out of compliance parts proper logbook and steward notification is completed. This isn't pro racing and we don't have professional scruts like NASCAR, so there is a limit to what we have time to look for.
Perhaps you folks can offer some additional suggestions for what to check for.
Perhaps you folks can offer some additional suggestions for what to check for.
#67
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When it comes to older cars, it is possible that a previous owner did something that the current owner doesn't know about, which makes the car illegal. That said, there most certainly is intentional cheating going on too... This is widespread in Spec Miata and SCCA in general. I've seen a number of those cars not even running the spec tire. How much more obvious can you get, when you're running Hoosiers on a car that's supposed to be on RA-1's!? And there are plenty of other things as well.
Another possibility is people who stretch the rules and just go a little too far... The truth about racing is that hardly anyone is really interested in competing on a level playing field, no matter how much they say they are. I tried for years to obey not only the letter of the rules, but also the intent, because I just wanted a fair driver vs driver race... If someone beats me because I suck, then I can deal with that and learn from that, but if they beat me because they burned more $$$ or ignored the rules, then that's just lame and pointless. It's a frustrating experience because I feel like I'm the only one who actually wants a fair race, as I watch everyone else continually try to one-up each other, out-spend each other, and stretch gray areas in the rules.
Another possibility is people who stretch the rules and just go a little too far... The truth about racing is that hardly anyone is really interested in competing on a level playing field, no matter how much they say they are. I tried for years to obey not only the letter of the rules, but also the intent, because I just wanted a fair driver vs driver race... If someone beats me because I suck, then I can deal with that and learn from that, but if they beat me because they burned more $$$ or ignored the rules, then that's just lame and pointless. It's a frustrating experience because I feel like I'm the only one who actually wants a fair race, as I watch everyone else continually try to one-up each other, out-spend each other, and stretch gray areas in the rules.
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#68
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Don't complain about dyno runs and scales if they aren't being used, do something about it instead.
Enforcing rules in GTS is only as good as the series director in each region. Don't have a series director? Then volunteer to be one and enforce the rules. Have one already? Talk to them and ask for the changes to be made.
If your region already has scales at the event, all it takes is for the series director to call people to them. If your region does not have them, ask for them to be purchased or take a collection from the active GTS drivers.
While the National rules do not require a Dynojet, I bet a Region could succesfully modify the rules to require one in their region (versus a Mustang). If the drivers in the series support the change, and anyone not cheating should, its easy to implement.
Enforcing rules in GTS is only as good as the series director in each region. Don't have a series director? Then volunteer to be one and enforce the rules. Have one already? Talk to them and ask for the changes to be made.
If your region already has scales at the event, all it takes is for the series director to call people to them. If your region does not have them, ask for them to be purchased or take a collection from the active GTS drivers.
While the National rules do not require a Dynojet, I bet a Region could succesfully modify the rules to require one in their region (versus a Mustang). If the drivers in the series support the change, and anyone not cheating should, its easy to implement.
There is a high likelihood of at least two protests at the next SE race, we will see is anything is done when they are filed.
#69
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the question I've always had about dynos is how truly accurate and consistent they are. I've had my car dynoed 3 times from the same dyno and gotten three very different readings. I run PMO carbs, so we are very suceptible to temp, humidity, etc. And very minor quick adjustments can make major changes to dyno reads.
Just curious from the guys that have been dynoed at the track because I really don't know: how close is the portable reading from the print out you have from a local shop? from the experiences I've had, I just don't see it being near the same, but that's just my opinion....
Just curious from the guys that have been dynoed at the track because I really don't know: how close is the portable reading from the print out you have from a local shop? from the experiences I've had, I just don't see it being near the same, but that's just my opinion....
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#70
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Funny you mention this, because I think that many of the podium finishers in PCA that I know want EXACTLY that. The biggest gripe I see is usually not with cheaters, but more with rules that illogically allow one car to have a legal performance advantage that is not possible in another car, even though it is in the same class.
#71
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Motors, shocks, and ECU are all sealed. Trans and diff may be too, I'm not sure. And they're thinking about re-flashing the ECU's back to stock on every car before each race. That's one of the things that appealed to me about the series - maybe it will actually be a true "spec" series, rather than in name only.
I've been racing Spec Miatas for a few years, and without a doubt there's a fair amount of cheating going on. It gets aggravating very quickly.
To go back to the OP's question, if all we're racing for is pride (which *is* all we're racing for), how much pride do you have if you cheat and beat everyone? You haven't proven anything, you can't feel good about yourself or the way you drove, so what's the point? (Rhetorical question, by the way....because we all know it happens anyway).
I've been racing Spec Miatas for a few years, and without a doubt there's a fair amount of cheating going on. It gets aggravating very quickly.
To go back to the OP's question, if all we're racing for is pride (which *is* all we're racing for), how much pride do you have if you cheat and beat everyone? You haven't proven anything, you can't feel good about yourself or the way you drove, so what's the point? (Rhetorical question, by the way....because we all know it happens anyway).
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#73
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The rules are the rules and some of them are pretty black and white. Fender flaring and suspension geometry stuff is pretty explicit. I mean they found a bump steer kit on Hupfer's car at Road America last weekend after he pulverised everyone in his class... What could PCA have done other than DQing the guy?
As for more analysis/scrutineering of engines and trannys: +1.
As for more analysis/scrutineering of engines and trannys: +1.
There's also a difference between a stock class car that has been built from the ground up that pushes the limits in all areas versus a stock car that has had the suspension tweeked. I spent last Friday on a dyno to see where my car stood - 185 rwhp. That's probably about right for a 'stock' euro SC with a tired motor. Meanwhile, some legit cars have been tweeked to push 210 rwhp. Not cheaters IMO, just people using the right exhaust, getting mixture set just right, etc. I don't want to spend the $$ to compete with them...between D and E class there are plenty of people in the middle and back of the pack to race with.
#74
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When a new race car is presented to PCA for a log book, we check all safety items as well as class compliance items. Now, it is not feasable to disassemble a gearbox to check for gears, a shock body to check for valving, an engine to check for internal engine parts.
...
Perhaps you folks can offer some additional suggestions for what to check for.
...
Perhaps you folks can offer some additional suggestions for what to check for.
I see people register in my class as a "prepared" car even though they should register as a "stock" car because the "prepared" car should be up one class.
Sure, these are very minor things, but I'm a fan of the Giuliani police enforcement strategy: enforce the small things and people will see that you are serious and won't try breaking the bigger things. Letting people slide with gutted interiors only shows that some rules are not going to be enforced and other rules are. Then it's a guessing game on what you can and can't do to the car.
#75
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