SG_M3

That power figure is from an engine built by the same guys building the Turner motors.

These are built to the limit motors, aftermarket pistons, lightest stock rods, dry sump. I believe they let the bmw run a header because the stock headers have the cats in them. That a long with good tuning can produce a pretty nice s54. Some street s54 are seeing 330 rwhp without cams.

The cars are also running bosch tuned motorsports abs, one reason you see them having awesome braking ability.

mark kibort

What can I say Dave I had to respond. I know you dont like to read, so sorry about the length of post. Just thought I would qualify some of the data you are so proud of to make your points.

Remember Dave, this is a discussion!

Now, have that nice evening as well!

mark kibort

Its just amazing. I'm so out of touch with the new technology, so I guess its not that incredible that an engine can make 15% more by making its flywheeel hp at the wheels these days with the tuning ability and tools available

Did it do it with the CF PTG style intake, or with stock tuning alone?

(attached is the top secret PTG intake stuff. works of art for sure )

special ABS you just push all the way to the floor, traction control, 350hp out of 3.2 liters, geezzzz! doesnt anyone have to drive anymore????

Mk

mark kibort

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qtW7dtkVM8

WC touring cheater motor???? Looks like a blue , x-walterswick, ex WCT BMW with an S54 motor and 375rwhp!!!

Hey, here is Bryan and his dad running 475HP bmws! (I think Andy finished ahead of VJ in this video)
Bryan, you must be making as much HP as the "silver bullet" #62 driven by our pal VJ, right? is that 475 engine hp , or near 400rwhp???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw3SYsBnSGc

so your curve below is a peak of near 375rwhp or more?

Thanks,

mk

Bryan Watts

I'm fairly sure VJ's car had more power than we did. That's a fully built VAC motor (they are in the business of building motors)...we have bone stock valves/cams/porting and only a slight compression bump in the bottom end. What power we have comes from bolt-ons (intake and headers) and setup and Motec tuning by Ed Senf. We have a somewhat similar setup to a Koni spec motor.

Mark, I see you've found my dyno graph. I'll tell you that the red line peaks at 313 rwhp, as it's a NASA GTS4 tune. Used it for the first time recently and had some great racing:
Part 1- http://www.vimeo.com/5810776
Part 2- http://www.vimeo.com/5815391

The blue line is a rain tune (used in the video you posted above) and the green line is a conservative max power tune.

As for the posts suggesting that Koni Porsches are only making 300 rwhp...I know about what the BMW's are making. The Porsches must be making a lot more than ya'll think.

mark kibort

Im sure too. When Ive seen him run against bonified 290rwhp M3s at 2600lbs and he walks away like they are all standing still, i have to imagine he is making some big power, and sure enough, we found the video and graphs.

Everyone says that you get up to 350rwhp with the intake, headers and tune.
Man, if i do some estimation from your graphs, showing redline is 313rwhp, you are making a boat load of power. Probably near VJs motor, but maybe doing it with less? I assume you are using one of those CF intakes too?
Thanks for sharing. Wish we could run GTS4 against each other, but now, im clearly in GTS5 with my new motor. probably your max tune hp , but at 300lb more weight I would bet.

I would be willing to bet, the porsches are making more hp than they know or are saying. Heck, all this is not rocket science. In our SCCA races, we are all real competitive, but all share our dynos, recently. Ill tell you, nothing has surprised me at all. most everyone runs as they should on the straights. braking, handling, and traffic, are always different stories

mk

mark kibort

Thats awesome~! reminds me of our porsche bmw challenge series out here with nasa!

How were your times now? more like a little slower than speed Touring times now???

shame on you , that pick at 3:17
wow, 8:30. glad you were watching your mirrors too, instead of fixating on drafting the mustang.
15:14 Bryan, that was really tight, bold brave and a little risky, and so glad derek was a gentleman and valued his and your car. Actually, either way, he was doomed to loose that corner. I know that feeling. great video.

mk

SG_M3

no, you don't get 350 rwhp with a intake, header, and tune. You get that with a s54 specifically built to the GS rule set, that and $25k. Big difference. An intake, header, and tune s54 can make 290-310 rwhp.

Veloce Raptor

Exactly. Which is why Sunbelt, VAC, and others are very financially successful companies.





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Bryan Watts

World Challenge qualified at 2:05.6 in April 2008. I ran 2:03.5's on R-comps and the 313 rwhp GTS4 tune in the Time Trials sessions at this same NASA event during my first time out on R-comps in 4+ years (9 on this specific car). Pretty sure I can go 2:02's without getting held up in traffic. Don't worry, we're still plenty faster than a World Challenge touring car, even detuned to near their power levels.

Derek was on my tail or beside me all of the way down the straight (you can see him in my mirror 1/2 way down the straight) and had been there since the lap before when the Corvette almost spun in front of me. It wasn't a bonzai pass on his part...I just backed off and eased onto the brakes early to slot in behind him since the Mustang had me picked on the right.

There was a lot of give and take in that corner. I bailed into the grass on the right at the apex to keep from creating contact. Couldn't get slowed down in the grass, so he had to bail to left to make room for me. Like you said, I had the winning line. I guarantee Derek won't give up the right side if he's in that same situation again. It seems obvious, at first, to go left and take the "inside" of the first of the two turns...at least until you've been passed by someone who goes right.

I might even suggest that 350 rwhp is low. I'm pretty sure everyone in the paddock is lying about how much power they make...save for our GTS4 numbers posted above, I know I am.

mark kibort

impressive. Maybe you should give clay and Seth some driving instruction.
seriously though, are you a little lighter? either way. fast times. Watching that VIR video makes me want to make the trip to drive it someday.

we have had a couple of bunch ups on slow corners like that nasty one. as long as everyone is about their wits, seems always seem to work out well. well, most of the time!

I tend to lean to your assesment of the BMW motors, from a few that build some very fast ones around here.

Bryan Watts

I realize you're being facetious, but hell no. My driving sucks these days. I am lucky if I make 2-3 race weekends a year right now. Both those guys can dust me.

The E90's have a minimum weight of 2900. I weighed 2760 when I came off the track at VIR, so we definitely have a weight advantage. Hoosier R6's and 313 rwhp, and a much older chassis. That said, I think it lends credence to my suggestion that the Toyo's are way slower than the Hoosiers? The World Challenge cars weigh more, but they also do more testing/tuning of their setup (and their driving) than I have time for these days. They are severely limited by their tires (both size and compound) IMO.

mark kibort

Yes, just joking around, but yes, if you are running FASTER than the best WCtouring cars and all you have is 15hp more and hoosiers with 100lbs less weight, thats not that much of an advantage. Ill give up those odds in a race at a track I know any day of the week. Looks like you are pedalling the car around VIR pretty well. Probably, the tuning around the toyos and the ability to make the tires work an entire race, more than likely negates the advantages of the 1 second more grip most see. (Im being generous). Ive seen a few drivers put on 100-200lbs of reward weight and just drive the wheels of to run only .5 to 1 second slower than before. (wc or even in club stuff) 15hp? well, i dont think that this is worth that much, maybe 1/4 second or so. Now the real question is, what are the sunbelt WCT motors putting out these days? I suspect, 300rwhp, but thats an educated guess. I tend to lean to a bit more! what do you think?


what it lends, is credence to is that you are probably just as fast as they are. I think many of the club guys actually get MORE racing experience than many of the WC guys. Certainly, WC races can (and some might not be) be a lot more intence and they drive a lot of different tracks. in my opinon, a lot of top drivers, club and pro, can run a hot lap time. heck, just look at Davis, he is beating guys like Pobst and may others now. Its much more about race strategy, and equipment and not making mistakes.

Bryan Watts

The 1 second difference between Hoosiers and Toyos that MOST see? You still stuck on believing that huh? Who are these "MOST" people you are talking to? Sorry Mark, there's more than 1 second there between Toyo's and Hoosiers, even on a short track. Hell, I bet there's more than 1 second around Lime Rock.

More racing experience in 2-3 club race weekends a year than WC guys? Umm, ok. Besides, the folks running in WC aren't just on track during WC weekends. Most of them are co-driving other places, club racing, coaching, etc, etc, etc. In a sport of such extreme precision, practice is EVERYTHING. Tiger Woods wouldn't win golf tournaments if he only showed up to play 2-3 times a year. I think you severely underestimate the importance of seat time. I suspect I'm a good 1.5-2 seconds, a lifetime, off the pace I once ran when I was driving 1-2 weekends a month as a kid. Some of the "Pros" I know are on track 3+ weekends a month and coaching at private test days a few weekdays in between. There's no substitution for practice, no matter how much natural talent and ability you may or may not have.

So wait, is it about racing skill or about all of the other things? You're talking about something very different now. We were talking about driver skill just a second ago. Winning races is dependent on a lot of things...an average driver may be able to win a race in a great car.

Are you talking about Brandon Davis? A kid who has been racing karts since Age 7 and essentially lives, eats, breathes driving race cars? I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to challenge Pobst, especially since he has had some great equipment over the years (Realtime, the current Mustang, etc). A lack of practice and seat time is not a problem that Davis has to deal with.

Veloce Raptor

Bryan, on all the topics above, and with all due respect to Mark, you are talking to a brick wall.





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