mark kibort

How do you know? you are used to driving a cup car at near 500lbs heavier and only 50hp more. unless you have seen the dyno runs or runa car at the same weight, itsnt a little hard to compare? I know a lot of the WCTouring guys talk about how little hp they have, but when you see a dyno run, it speaks a little louder!

mk

QUOTE=analogmike;6815609]I raced Bavaro's Koni car two years ago and it had good power. He knows how to build a good engine! But no way a non-S engine is making 350HP to the rear wheels legally.[/QUOTE]

mark kibort

Thanks for the info Kerrigan.

I thougth the 3.8 was legal this year, but only in the S package which carried a weight penalty. I do remember the engine debacle, where the engine was taken by grand am and not given back! (for violating the rules of using a 3.8 vs the spec 3.6) If it was an innocent mistake, that would be a pretty big one. in the end, that cost the team near, $20-30k or more i imagine to replace the engine with the correct one.

from the dynos I saw on the bmers with 3.2L's of near 315 with a stock air box and intake, i see no reason why the 911s 4 years later, cant run 320rwhp out of their 3.6s.

on the track, they sure look competitive with each other being at near the same weight as well.

by the way, do you know if those weights are with driver vs without driver as listed in the rules for grand am?

As far as dynos, if you are looking at an uncorrected dyno run, and its non rollers, (dyno jet) , its pretty hard to fake number or make them better than they really are. SAE correction can be played with , but actual is actual. you either accelerate the rollers /drums, or you dont. simple math tells you the HP output. However, brake dynos and others like them, can be fudged a bit. my experience with dynojet vs mustang dyno has been within a few HP and Ive got 20 or so dynojet dyno days on my car with not many change over the years, and couple Mustang dynos as well.

SG_M3

The bmw GS cars are making ~350+ rwhp. 400+ on an engine dyno.

mark kibort

You have got to be kidding me! Really? when did this happen, or did the make this power back in 05 when I saw them for the first time at laguna?

What do you think they are doing to them to get this amazing amount of power?
I though the cars had to be stock, even with a stock airbox? Byran suggested they have a cam that they are allowed to run and obviously some tuning. But I thought they even needed to run stock ex manifolds too.

Wow, the bar is going up. No wonder the mustangs were allowed a lower weight this year. (and we all know how much those big V8 cammer motors make as far as power)

Kerrigan Smith

It will be interesting to see where Grand Am takes things for 2010 competition. There is some new American muscle in Koni Challenge and now the 2009 Cayman S DFI car has been approved for competition in GS.

With that alone happening you would think that they would have to allow the 997 to either run the 3.8 or the new DFI or remove their weight. Unfortunately the "built engines" have been making the 997's seem a lot faster than they really are and have resulted in keeping the weight at 3025 lbs ( no fuel, no driver).

Fun times where we will have to wait and see.

Veloce Raptor

Mark, I alluded to this weeks ago, and you were similarly disbelieving.





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mark kibort

I thought you were hinting that i was off my rocker that the BMWs dont have anywhere near that much power.

Well, I believe it, but dont ask the actual racers and they will just tell you that their cars are stock. by the way, that one that pobst seemed to run, was almost identical to my HP . I wonder if that car, was just detuned , or this was the prior to big hp mods. (or they pulled them off before selling the car)

thanks,
Mk

mark kibort

wow, 3250 with a big driver. thats pretty porkey. seems about right now that I know they have some big HP.

Hey, 171, thats your weight, hp and your time at Laguna, 1:37.xx!, just like the grandam 996s!


Mk

Veloce Raptor

Or, perhaps, Pobst was driving easy exhibition laps, allowing you to keep him barely in sight & think you were "keeping up with Randy Pobst", rather than race laps.





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analogmike

The BMWs have more power and WAY more torque than the 911s. Check out this video of Joey Hand and Andy Lally. The BMW leaves the car in 4th gear from the middle of no-name straight to the middle of the main straight (start at the 2 minute mark, before that Hand is trying some moves and downshifting). The BMW pulls the 911 in the uphill and west bend in 4th even though the 911 downshifted to 3rd get maximum power. Lally's TRG 911 has all the tricks allowed, and then some.



Having actually driven the fastest GS 911s (BGB), and working with the guy who preps them, I think I know what I'm talking about about, as does Kerrigan who wrote:

>>> There is nothing legal about that engine or having your 3.6 engine make that kind of power. The 3.8 is not legal for competition and a legal car should be making about 305-310 at the rear wheels. <<

mark kibort

Hmm, that might be true, but why where his laps as fast as any posted by GRAND AM GS cars, (i.e. 137.6) including drivers such as Auberlin, Hand, and the rest of the gang? He was paid to beat the snot out of it so that the owner could know what the potential was for the car. Nice try. :rolleyes
Do you have ANY idea what it takes to run a 1:37.xx at laguna??? Try asking Seth.

You want to see exhibition laps. Wait until we race. Dont worry, ill slow down to keep you in the rear view cam.

mark kibort

Thats some great footage. The gears are pretty close between the two cars with the 911 being slightly lower as you illude to.

They are darn close, but the BMW does have a power advantage it would seem, even though a lot of it was driver and line differnces from what I could see. the bmw sure is awesome under braking an entrances to the corners.

Thanks for the post.

Veloce Raptor

Mark, the last time Grand Am Cup/Koni ran there, the leaders were doing 36's. World Challenge Touring Cars do 35's (Randy Pobst, ironically, in a Mazda6). So I still maintain that--despite your ego insisting otherwise--Pobst was not driving that M3 to its fullest potential.

Do I have any idea what it takes to do 37's there in a 6 cylinder car? Yes I do. Do you?





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mark kibort

Dave, You are always skewing the data to fit your cut-downs.

That car (sofro's old GS M3) has not been run in Grand AM since '05. the best time in the race was 1:38. I.m sure Auberlin, Sofro, or Hand, can give Pobst a run for his money in any car.

WCT do not do 35s in the race, and neither did Koni cars. since the car ran in 05 and possibly 06, why dont you look up those race times.

Does the number of cylinders really matter? should I post the BMW vs 928 HP HP graphs again? my car had near the same HP as Pobsts at the time, and near the same rear wheel torque at any speed you could find. Are you saying that the less cylinder drivers of any race are better drivers? auberlin has raced 8s and 6s. I think he has been faster in the 6s most recently. (panos vs bmws)

Why dont you ask Pobst if he was holding back. im sure the owner would be a little let down if he wasnt pushing the car since he was paying him to push it.
Sofro, munson, and many others drove this car to near the same laguna time as Pobst. look it up before you start to shoot off your mouth.

Now, you say you have an idea what it takes to run a 137.xx. Ok, remember, I also have toyos, suspension that is blown out 10 years ago, no alignment since 2002. (well until now, ) no set up work, everything bolted on and turned to full stiff. and of course, Im a lousy driver in your opinion. So, what does that say to the car? Hmm, based on your boastful logic, the car should be at least 4 seconds faster with some tune, test and a top driver. I dont think anyone in their right mind would call my 20 year old street car, a 1:33 car at laguna on a set of hoosiers. Howevere there is a top driver that runs a car like mine to a 1:31, with 150more HP, motons, and full race slicks. You do the math. so, what does it take to run a 1:37 Dave??? Please tell us! I know, because I have, and do everytime i hit the track now, but have you???? Right, didnt think so!

actual race data:

WC Touring ' 07 your buddie Seth and clay ran 1:37.8 and 1:37 in qual, but crashed in the race
fastest race time in a BMW was 1:38.5 by my BOY, Matt Richmond!
Pobst ran a 1:36.9xx in therace, which is still fast, but he got beat by a TSX and Brandon Davis.

In Rolex GS in '06, the fastest timie was a 1:39.6 by a 'stang and the fastest BMW was, ironically enough, 1:40.xx and it was the Munson, Anchor racing BMW
in "07, GS ran much faster to a 1:37.0 in the race, with the fastest bmws of thorton, segal, long, etc. was mid 1:37s

so, you are comparing top pros to my crap box 1986 porsche 928 with its original engine with a set of headers and used Toyo tires? you are funny!

.

Veloce Raptor

Mark, no put-downs of you intended or needed. You accomplish that all by yourself with posts like the above, especially after the irony of your first line followed by the word barrage immediately thereafter.

Have a nice evening.





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