NASA at VIR 7/24-26
07-16-2009, 04:45 PM
#91
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True, I think that GTS series needs more cars. But, you gotta admit, running with 9+ cars is appealing!
1st let me say that I've called no one here a cheat. I think it's more misunderstanding than anything. My car is dynoed on a dynojet, which in my opinion is fairly accurate if in the right hands. Last year when we built the car, the best I got at the rears was 310...not bad for an X51. Lately, I've gotten a little more out of it with a new air box. I did some research when they were coming up with new weights for GTB last year. For example, my car stock was like 340 (all stock quoted hp's), reg 3.6 was 325, 997 was 340, 7S was 355 and 7S X51 was 380. I may be off here and there, but that's pretty close. Now, my car is about as close to a 9.0 (9.4) ratio as I want and be safe to run slicks. Don't want to get busted cause I'm light on fuel and not running a cool shirt. So, I have a difficult time believing that a 7S or 7S with an X51 can be in my class and weigh the same or a hair more the me. I don't see a challenge with a car with 355 at the fly putting out 340 at the rears with a few mods like mine has. I don't think a 997 with an x51 would have a problem with putting out 360 after some mods. That would make that min weight 3240 to run in GTS4, minimum. With that said, Terry's engine is updated and not a standard lower hp 01 cup. I would not be at all surprised if it didn't lay down at least 360 at the rears as well. So, at least in my mind, his car should weigh a min of 3240, w/ driver to be legal in my class....he would have to add about 250 pounds to do so. That is a fairly big difference in power/weight ratio between my car and an updated cup car without adding the weight.
Concerning times, my best was 2:03.9 and on smaller diameter tires which I don't run in NASA because of the contingency, so my times will not be as good. To put it honestly, I think on a good day with a pro, by car could do a 2:02 and with the same scenario Terry's car could do a 1:58 or better. Terry's driving is coming along very well and I don't think I can overcome a gap like that.
I know and like Terry very much. He would not be a person that would cheat at any cost...just not in his DNA. I think a lot of Greg and the guys at 3G. I think they made a call to NASA and went with it. That's all. Either way, it's frustrating for me to know that I'm up against a car I can't beat unless it has a crappy driver. Terry is a good driver.
Also, this has gone on in GTS3 as well. I would have to add over 400 pounds to get my car in GTS3. That's all I will say about that. I really wished I would have kept my mouth shut in the beginning. You are right...too much drama and like I said before, these guys are my friends. Now I find myself defending my viewpoint. So, please someone tell me where I'm off base here. Are my numbers unreasonable? Are all my dynos wrong on my car?
On the same token, do I think it's fair to pair a 997 cup with a 996 cup? Of course not. But, I don't know much about the 997 so I can't comment on the power/weight ratio. I do know that I've seen you drive and yes you will do well in GTS5 if the car fits.
So, now I feel like a total freakin jerk for every saying anything about Terry or anyone for that matter. It didn't start or ever become an accusation of any kind on my behalf. I apologize to all concerned.
1st let me say that I've called no one here a cheat. I think it's more misunderstanding than anything. My car is dynoed on a dynojet, which in my opinion is fairly accurate if in the right hands. Last year when we built the car, the best I got at the rears was 310...not bad for an X51. Lately, I've gotten a little more out of it with a new air box. I did some research when they were coming up with new weights for GTB last year. For example, my car stock was like 340 (all stock quoted hp's), reg 3.6 was 325, 997 was 340, 7S was 355 and 7S X51 was 380. I may be off here and there, but that's pretty close. Now, my car is about as close to a 9.0 (9.4) ratio as I want and be safe to run slicks. Don't want to get busted cause I'm light on fuel and not running a cool shirt. So, I have a difficult time believing that a 7S or 7S with an X51 can be in my class and weigh the same or a hair more the me. I don't see a challenge with a car with 355 at the fly putting out 340 at the rears with a few mods like mine has. I don't think a 997 with an x51 would have a problem with putting out 360 after some mods. That would make that min weight 3240 to run in GTS4, minimum. With that said, Terry's engine is updated and not a standard lower hp 01 cup. I would not be at all surprised if it didn't lay down at least 360 at the rears as well. So, at least in my mind, his car should weigh a min of 3240, w/ driver to be legal in my class....he would have to add about 250 pounds to do so. That is a fairly big difference in power/weight ratio between my car and an updated cup car without adding the weight.
Concerning times, my best was 2:03.9 and on smaller diameter tires which I don't run in NASA because of the contingency, so my times will not be as good. To put it honestly, I think on a good day with a pro, by car could do a 2:02 and with the same scenario Terry's car could do a 1:58 or better. Terry's driving is coming along very well and I don't think I can overcome a gap like that.
I know and like Terry very much. He would not be a person that would cheat at any cost...just not in his DNA. I think a lot of Greg and the guys at 3G. I think they made a call to NASA and went with it. That's all. Either way, it's frustrating for me to know that I'm up against a car I can't beat unless it has a crappy driver. Terry is a good driver.
Also, this has gone on in GTS3 as well. I would have to add over 400 pounds to get my car in GTS3. That's all I will say about that. I really wished I would have kept my mouth shut in the beginning. You are right...too much drama and like I said before, these guys are my friends. Now I find myself defending my viewpoint. So, please someone tell me where I'm off base here. Are my numbers unreasonable? Are all my dynos wrong on my car?
On the same token, do I think it's fair to pair a 997 cup with a 996 cup? Of course not. But, I don't know much about the 997 so I can't comment on the power/weight ratio. I do know that I've seen you drive and yes you will do well in GTS5 if the car fits.
So, now I feel like a total freakin jerk for every saying anything about Terry or anyone for that matter. It didn't start or ever become an accusation of any kind on my behalf. I apologize to all concerned.
But like I said it is all relative in Club Racing. Even at the Pro Level in Grand-Am some guys feel things are unfair and complain. Like Cry baby Montaya when Donahue beat him in the 24hour. But it is relative there too. Some tracks give advantage to different strong points of the various chassis/engine configs. At some tracks with the GT cars Porsche has an advantage and at others the Mazda or Pontiacs do. That is why the idea of a points system for the series makes sense.
Anyway, we are all just wanting to have fun right. So I think we just need to do our best with the circumstances we have to work with and hope for the best. If I was in Terry's car and put in GTS5 against a 997 Cup, I too would be frustrated with those circumstances. But again, it is Club Racing. Although in NASA with the tire contingency I would think they would have a little narrower range in power/weight ratios for the class levels. But nothing is perfect. We still can have fun though. You are probably right about Terry's car. So after the dyno I think Terry will be in GTS5 which probably will make it a lot harder for him to be competitive there. But as you said above - Terry wasn't ever trying to cheat before. And he had the old motor at CMP when he ran in GTS4 if I remember correctly. That would be about 325to a max of 330 at the wheels. I bet his car with driver and cool suit and such weighed about 2900-2950. I am pretty sure my old 00 Cup weighed 2690 with out me in the car. With cool suit box and driver/equipment I would guess he would have been right on the line for GTS4 when he was put there at CMP BY the NASA officials.
Anyway, I hope you all have fun next week down at VIR! I wish I could go, but my gearbox is on its way to Gordon now and my schedule wouldnt allow for it anyway.
Jeff, maybe I will try to do a NASA race later in the year. When is the next VIR race? Is there ever many GTS5 cars anyway? It isn't much fun when you are only running against yourself.
07-16-2009, 07:55 PM
#92
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So, now I feel like a total freakin jerk for every saying anything about Terry or anyone for that matter. It didn't start or ever become an accusation of any kind on my behalf. I apologize to all concerned.
On the GTS Challenge participant #s issue...it's simple, if people keep creating reasons to dodge running in the series, and run in other classes, then we will forever have issues with getting participants!! ...in other words, I'll bet there are 3 people running in another class because not many are registered for GTS4 or 5.
If those people registered to run in the GTS Challenge, then we'd be talking 4 or so cars per group and possibly more would join up...and that would satisfy the contingency requirements for Hoosier, CDOC, etc.
For the record, I'm not picking on YOU specifically or calling anyone out, just stating a fact...if you have a GERMAN platform that's approved to run in the GTS Challenge Series (Porsche, BMW, Volvo, Audi, Mercedes) then get a dyno on a Dynojet, get a weight with you and all gear in it and COME ON, join the fun! ...it's addictive and we'd get more participants as others see the series growing. No drivers/cars, no series. German cars are extremely popular track vehicles...there is NO reason why we couldn't be filling up the various classes in GTS.
Don't worry so much about being competitive at first, most of us have developed our cars for the series over several years of running in it. Most of us have figured out how to keep our cars PCA Club Racing and BMWCCA compliant while running in NASA GTS.
Figure it this way, you've probably tailored your car to run in PCA or BMW Club Racing...so figure out what else you can do, or what you can swap back and forth, whether it be different tire types (slicks -vs.- DOT rubber), a chip (that can add HP and easily plugged in/removed...depending on what series you're racing in) and several other factors.
Keep in mind that your dyno results, at the wheels, are what you use...and the weight is with you, your safety/comfort gear (coolsuit, helmet, etc.) and whatever gas you end up with at the end of a race, given a specific period of time for said race...it's that simple.
There is ONE factor, your tires...if you're running true slicks, the formula changes a bit, it's all posted in the ruleset.
Only your dyno result, the weight of your vehicle/driver and a calculator is necessary to figure out where you fit in the classing for the GTS Challenge Series...from there, you can adjust weight and/or HP as needed to be towards the top of the limit for your class.
Now strap in and let's go racing!
07-16-2009, 09:39 PM
#93
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hi!
you could always register for Super Touring 2; i think that there are 9-10 cars preregistered (!!!); i'd expect that the power/weight crossover between ST2 and GTS4 would be very close (i THINK its around 8.7 lbs/hp min for ST2). and hoosier pays contingency for it, too (and would be paying FULL contingency with that many cars signed up!!!). looks like this VIR race is heavily populated with Vettes, with a smattering of japanese cars, too. should be an excellent race! (and i'd think that your race 996 would stand an excellent shot at ST2).
see you there?
todd
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you could always register for Super Touring 2; i think that there are 9-10 cars preregistered (!!!); i'd expect that the power/weight crossover between ST2 and GTS4 would be very close (i THINK its around 8.7 lbs/hp min for ST2). and hoosier pays contingency for it, too (and would be paying FULL contingency with that many cars signed up!!!). looks like this VIR race is heavily populated with Vettes, with a smattering of japanese cars, too. should be an excellent race! (and i'd think that your race 996 would stand an excellent shot at ST2).
see you there?
todd
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07-16-2009, 10:33 PM
#95
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For the record, I'm not picking on YOU specifically or calling anyone out, just stating a fact...if you have a GERMAN platform that's approved to run in the GTS Challenge Series (Porsche, BMW, Volvo, Audi, Mercedes) then get a dyno on a Dynojet, get a weight with you and all gear in it and COME ON, join the fun! ...it's addictive and we'd get more participants as others see the series growing. No drivers/cars, no series. German cars are extremely popular track vehicles...there is NO reason why we couldn't be filling up the various classes in GTS.
I really like the GTS series. If I could somehow construe the SRF with the Euro Escort motor to being a German platform.....
07-16-2009, 11:46 PM
#98
So, now I feel like a total freakin jerk for every saying anything about Terry or anyone for that matter. It didn't start or ever become an accusation of any kind on my behalf. I apologize to all concerned.
Don't worry, I'm glad to see someone call Terry out. He's been running rough shod over most people at the tavern for years. Ask Edna. Don't wory you won't look bad, this thread only started to find out who was going to VIR for NASA. In the words of Flounder from Animal House " This Is Great"
Don't worry, I'm glad to see someone call Terry out. He's been running rough shod over most people at the tavern for years. Ask Edna. Don't wory you won't look bad, this thread only started to find out who was going to VIR for NASA. In the words of Flounder from Animal House " This Is Great"
07-17-2009, 01:29 AM
#99
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A german Volvo. I learn something new everyday.
Hi guys whats up?
07-17-2009, 01:33 AM
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07-17-2009, 09:04 AM
#101
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This why I go to VIR, you can always feel the love. Most of my best friends were met on the track there.
I 'm proud to say you can see pictures of them hanging in the local post office. All except Scott whose image has been copywritten by Jose Cuervo.
I 'm proud to say you can see pictures of them hanging in the local post office. All except Scott whose image has been copywritten by Jose Cuervo.
07-17-2009, 10:31 AM
#103
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HA! Hey Jody! I was looking forward to mixing it up in ST2 for a change! But, having a hard time finding tires for my car to fit. I need 275's on the rear in a Hoosier slick...anyone know of any? Otherwise, I have to add too much weight and I don't have a ballast.
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07-17-2009, 11:40 AM
#104
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I believe Hoosier just came out with a 275/245 18" setup on the new slick?? 
Keep in mind, if you're using a non-DOT tire the formula changes for GTS, you may already know this, just putting it out there.
Terry will be patrolling the paddock with his "non-DOT" rubber detector!!
As for the "GTS Bier Garten" (did I speel that write??) I dunno, Wonger was talking about getting one of the shops that regularly attend and support GTS racers at NASA events to sponsor a lil' sumthin'...not clear on that or if it's even going to happen.
Let's flood his inbox with inquiries!
Keep in mind, if you're using a non-DOT tire the formula changes for GTS, you may already know this, just putting it out there.
Terry will be patrolling the paddock with his "non-DOT" rubber detector!!
As for the "GTS Bier Garten" (did I speel that write??) I dunno, Wonger was talking about getting one of the shops that regularly attend and support GTS racers at NASA events to sponsor a lil' sumthin'...not clear on that or if it's even going to happen.
Let's flood his inbox with inquiries!
07-17-2009, 12:12 PM
#105
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You may be talking about the 295/660's for the rear which I will be going to soon. But, no go for ST2. They no longer make the 275's in a good size for my car. They went to 280/680 and 250/650, which is a great tire, but very tall and slower for my car. Optimum is 660 rears for good gearing my my stock box.