Bob Rouleau

Wow. In our region you can't get into the intermediate group without demonstrating proper heel and toe technique.

Veloce Raptor

Well, same here. Nevertheless, what I posted above remains true.

And that is all I am going to say on the matter.

Tom W

I'm not advocating DE turn into racing. I'm simply suggesting that passing in a turn is a reasonable skill to acquire for an "advanced" driver (regardless of if they are an instructor or not) and passing in a turn allows much better traffic flow in advanced run groups. Some advanced drivers/instructors drive slower cars and some drive faster cars. Allowing the faster traffic by sooner as opposed to later is a good thing. This is especially true where a point is required. The car being passed has full control of when it is to be allowed and signals that he/she knows the overtaking car is there and which side the pass is to occur on. I'm also a fan of open passing (no point) but PCA does not appear to be ready for that.

Not everyone is comfortable with passing in a turn. If they don't want to participate, they can run in the intermediate groups where it is not allowed. I think that if you are an instructor or an advanced intermediate, it's a skill that you should have.

Larry Herman

Eddie, I am staying on-topic. I also did not say that I was in favor of it. I feel there are a reasonable number of people who are instructors cannot handle this change. I cannot tell you how many times I have sat behind another instructor, waiting for a pass signal.

I also am unsure of what you are actually promoting. Is it allowing late passes into the braking zone with a signal? Is it allowing side-by-side passing in the corner with a signal? Does it eliminate the need for a signal in normal passing zones?

Geoffrey

Bob,

1) Lets be a little clear here, the PCA DE program is one of the methods (the most common) for entrance into the PCA Club Racing program. The Club Racing Rule book says: "The applicant must present evidence of having completed twelve or more days of race track driving training and experience at driver's ed events, time trials, race schools or equivalent events within 24 months....The applicant must provide a signed certification from his/her sanctioning body's Chief Instructor (or equivalent)"... So, PCA's policy has not changed and the PCA DE Program remains the most common avenue to Club Racing.

2) I agree with you that there are some people who view DE as racing, however, most of the time, those folks are people who don't race and have never raced. The racers I know have a high degree of respect for the DE program and respect the rules. At times the perception is that Racers are a problem because of the speed differential between them and the DE instructor groups when in reality it is the evidence of the skill difference between a Racer and a DE instructor.

3) The other groups you mention are all Driver's Education Schools, here is from their websites. Chin Motorsports -"A leading provider of non-competition track events for sports car enthusiasts. Offering high-performance driver education for entry-level drivers, and quality practice time for experts."
Trackmasters - "We teach Hi-Performance Driving… not racing. Trackmasters, inc. has developed a training course to improve overall driving ability, by teaching car control dynamics. These skills are directly applicable to street and long distance driving. Students become more confident, and safety oriented, as they properly learn how to handle their vehicles.

Tom W

A comment on "trains". Trains develop when there is a disparity in speed and passing zones that are not frequent enough to allow enough cars to pass. At Sears Point/Infineon it's a long way from the entrance to turn 7 (a great turnm to pass in) to the exit of turn 10 for the short straight to turn 11 (another great turn to pass in). Turn 7 to 10's exit is about one-third the track followed by a straight where not more than 2-3 cars can generally get by. Without allowing a pass in turns, it creates trains that are hard to dissipate.

I won't get into the discussion about "advanced" drivers or instructors who have poor awareness of what cars are around them or refuse to slow to allow the train to get by.

From my perspective, this isn't about letting fast cars by, it's about awareness of what's going on around you and the ability to safely control the car in a turn (during a pass). If you are so focused on the track and what is coming that you have no time to look at the gauges or look for who is approaching from behind, I don't think you belong in an advanced or instructor run group.

Bull

It appears to me that Tom was talking about an Instructor who "isn't capable of controlling the car to allow a pass in a turn or safely passing in a turn", since that is what he typed.

Those Instructors that who choose not to participate (but are capable) in these new passing rules are accommodated in another run group.

MUSSBERGER

They wanted it to coincide with the end of the availability of cassette decks from the factory.

Juha G

Tom, just move to Finland! We don't have any passing rules, or any other rules here. There's actually only one rule: Don't be a jackass...

Passing in Finland

Truth be told, this is the case when you do arrive and drive (most weekdays for €40/car/entire day). With Porsche Club Finland, they have passing rules during DEs, just like in US.

I think allowing passing in corners is fine for the highest run groups, as long as everyone is playing along.

smlporsche

Bull-
As I said 2 of the 3 senior instructors I referred to could easily pass (or allow somenoe else to pass them) in a corner as they had many years racing experience doing so.
It is just that they believe that DE's should be as safe as possible and I think any reasonable person would have to agree that passing in corners ups the ante.

As i said before I am in favor of this experiment as long as the rules as stated above are strictly enforced.

smlporsche

Juha-
Nice video. It looked like there weren't that many cars on the track. Things get interexsting with 50+ on at the same time.

smlporsche

Tru dat !

Bull

Right, I got that the first time, and was saying that they are NOT the people Tom was talking about.

va122

I agree with statement #2, while many participants view De as racing evidenced by the many threads on this board regarding "winning" their DE. The Racers like myself,( i can't speak for everyone) respect the DE rules and set a positive example to the future club racers by following the rules. In racing the rules are there to keep us safe and competitive.

Now the part of the speed differential is indeed a factor but as a racer i encounter this in a race all the time (laped traffic, broken cars) and the skills to deal with closing speeds is an essential skill for racers. Instructors shoud have this skill as second nature since they are responsible for the safety of the students. if they have a problem pointing by in a turn or lack the track awareness then their ability as an instructor is in question.

Geoffrey

I agree with the above, however, organizers of DE environments often label it "agressive driving" when in reality it is just the skill difference and speed that results from skilled racers.