Passing in corners at DE's in advanced run groups
02-25-2009, 02:04 PM
#91
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Not a new idea;
I saw this done in PCA as long ago as 1995. It was a HUGE success. The normally sanguine and reserved instructor corp instantly evidenced the enthusiasm and giddiness of novice students after the first session, and on throughout the event. I was still an intermediate driver at the time, and it was interesting to witness. In subsequent years, I have also participated in similar types of exercises at PCA events, with some of our more "creative" regions.
Now it seems PCA has awakened to the potential benefits of this program, which are many-fold. Until now, the sessions I have witnessed/participated in usually consist of 2-3-4 cars getting together and playing a carefully orchestrated game of corner leapfrog between people who know and trust eachother.
I might suggest that PCA start out in this manner to give everyone unfamiliar with such driving a chance to reap the benefits of this exercise. As we all know, even in advanced groups, there can be varying degrees of driving judgement and ability. I am somewhat ambivalent toward letting everyone do anything anywhere. I would prefer it be with small groups that know eachother, have driven together under the previous rules, and (hopefully) by default, have eachother's best interests in mind FIRST.
If this proves successful, and to the extent that a large number of advanced drivers become familair with such driving, then the rules could be relaxed a bit, with more leway given to the run group as a whole, rather than just small groups.
I saw this done in PCA as long ago as 1995. It was a HUGE success. The normally sanguine and reserved instructor corp instantly evidenced the enthusiasm and giddiness of novice students after the first session, and on throughout the event. I was still an intermediate driver at the time, and it was interesting to witness. In subsequent years, I have also participated in similar types of exercises at PCA events, with some of our more "creative" regions.
Now it seems PCA has awakened to the potential benefits of this program, which are many-fold. Until now, the sessions I have witnessed/participated in usually consist of 2-3-4 cars getting together and playing a carefully orchestrated game of corner leapfrog between people who know and trust eachother.
I might suggest that PCA start out in this manner to give everyone unfamiliar with such driving a chance to reap the benefits of this exercise. As we all know, even in advanced groups, there can be varying degrees of driving judgement and ability. I am somewhat ambivalent toward letting everyone do anything anywhere. I would prefer it be with small groups that know eachother, have driven together under the previous rules, and (hopefully) by default, have eachother's best interests in mind FIRST.
If this proves successful, and to the extent that a large number of advanced drivers become familair with such driving, then the rules could be relaxed a bit, with more leway given to the run group as a whole, rather than just small groups.
02-25-2009, 03:07 PM
#92
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One thing I would suggest - make real sure you have good mirrors if there will be passing in the turns. With HANS, harnesses, and maybe a cage, the visibility to the rear corners is limited.
I for one am real glad I have a race mirror in my car, and would not want to be restricted to just a street mirror.
I for one am real glad I have a race mirror in my car, and would not want to be restricted to just a street mirror.
02-25-2009, 03:15 PM
#93
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One thing I would suggest - make real sure you have good mirrors if there will be passing in the turns. With HANS, harnesses, and maybe a cage, the visibility to the rear corners is limited.
I for one am real glad I have a race mirror in my car, and would not want to be restricted to just a street mirror.
I for one am real glad I have a race mirror in my car, and would not want to be restricted to just a street mirror.
I also upgraded my HANS to the sliding teathers and it made an amazing difference in my ability to turn my head around. Definitely worthwhile on the track AND in the pits.
02-26-2009, 05:35 PM
#94
Having been both a PCA , SCCA and occasional vintage racer for the last 16+ years , I expect to be able to pass and can be expected to be passed at any place and at any time on the track.
I'm not sure however if this should necessarily transfer over to DE ,even with a point by.
We all know that most tracks have a "signature" turn (or two) or even some turns that just register a "10 on the pucker factor scale.These are turns that even racers "think about" before attempting a pass, and in these cases I think it would be prudent for DE organizers to simply forbid passing in some of these turns right from the get-go. Here are some examples of what I'm refering to:
Watkins Glen: the inner loop(or bus stop)
Lime Rock: West Bend,and the "uphill".
Mid-Ohio:the off camber left coming out of "thunder valley"
Mosport:Turn two
Road America:The Kink
These are just some examples,their are many more.
IMHO,at a DE venue an unsuccessful pass in any one of the above examples could have dire consequences' especially given the fact that not all DE cars contain the full compliment of safety equipment.
Not suggesting we spoil anybodys fun ,just suggesting we approach this with some prudence and common sense.
Tom B.
I'm not sure however if this should necessarily transfer over to DE ,even with a point by.
We all know that most tracks have a "signature" turn (or two) or even some turns that just register a "10 on the pucker factor scale.These are turns that even racers "think about" before attempting a pass, and in these cases I think it would be prudent for DE organizers to simply forbid passing in some of these turns right from the get-go. Here are some examples of what I'm refering to:
Watkins Glen: the inner loop(or bus stop)
Lime Rock: West Bend,and the "uphill".
Mid-Ohio:the off camber left coming out of "thunder valley"
Mosport:Turn two
Road America:The Kink
These are just some examples,their are many more.
IMHO,at a DE venue an unsuccessful pass in any one of the above examples could have dire consequences' especially given the fact that not all DE cars contain the full compliment of safety equipment.
Not suggesting we spoil anybodys fun ,just suggesting we approach this with some prudence and common sense.
Tom B.
02-26-2009, 05:50 PM
#95
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Having been both a PCA , SCCA and occasional vintage racer for the last 16+ years , I expect to be able to pass and can be expected to be passed at any place and at any time on the track.
I'm not sure however if this should necessarily transfer over to DE ,even with a point by.
We all know that most tracks have a "signature" turn (or two) or even some turns that just register a "10 on the pucker factor scale.These are turns that even racers "think about" before attempting a pass, and in these cases I think it would be prudent for DE organizers to simply forbid passing in some of these turns right from the get-go. Here are some examples of what I'm refering to:
Watkins Glen: the inner loop(or bus stop)
Lime Rock: West Bend,and the "uphill".
Mid-Ohio:the off camber left coming out of "thunder valley"
Mosport:Turn two
Road America:The Kink
These are just some examples,their are many more.
IMHO,at a DE venue an unsuccessful pass in any one of the above examples could have dire consequences' especially given the fact that not all DE cars contain the full compliment of safety equipment.
Not suggesting we spoil anybodys fun ,just suggesting we approach this with some prudence and common sense.
Tom B.
I'm not sure however if this should necessarily transfer over to DE ,even with a point by.
We all know that most tracks have a "signature" turn (or two) or even some turns that just register a "10 on the pucker factor scale.These are turns that even racers "think about" before attempting a pass, and in these cases I think it would be prudent for DE organizers to simply forbid passing in some of these turns right from the get-go. Here are some examples of what I'm refering to:
Watkins Glen: the inner loop(or bus stop)
Lime Rock: West Bend,and the "uphill".
Mid-Ohio:the off camber left coming out of "thunder valley"
Mosport:Turn two
Road America:The Kink
These are just some examples,their are many more.
IMHO,at a DE venue an unsuccessful pass in any one of the above examples could have dire consequences' especially given the fact that not all DE cars contain the full compliment of safety equipment.
Not suggesting we spoil anybodys fun ,just suggesting we approach this with some prudence and common sense.
Tom B.
(ex SCCA racer and current DE Instructor)
02-26-2009, 07:59 PM
#96
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The one thing I do take issue with is the "nobody owns the corner" idea. Bad idea IMHO. Why teach a rule that is ultimately contrary to the track rules. I should know when I own the corner, and understand the proper way to safely execute pass. I think the "no contesting corners" works better.
02-26-2009, 08:24 PM
#97
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The idea of corner ownership is moot in a DE where the lead car must give a point to tell the passing car they approve the pass and which side it will occur on. The car being passed is giving permission for the overtaking car to share the track and the overtaking car is agreeing to pass in a safe manner if they accept the point and make the pass.
It's not racing where the slow car does not want to be passed and will do what the rules allow to prevent it.
It's not racing where the slow car does not want to be passed and will do what the rules allow to prevent it.
02-26-2009, 09:00 PM
#98
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I hope this works well for all participants. If you get the chance to work with another driver of similar lap times it can be lots of fun and lots of learning. You can really advance your skills. You take one corner and he/she takes the next for passing. Driving off line and passing in corners requires trust, respect, and control. You'll learn real quick who gets it and who does not. Hope you have a blast and this becomes the norm. 
