Passing in corners at DE's in advanced run groups
#46
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#48
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I'm not advocating DE turn into racing. I'm simply suggesting that passing in a turn is a reasonable skill to acquire for an "advanced" driver (regardless of if they are an instructor or not) and passing in a turn allows much better traffic flow in advanced run groups. Some advanced drivers/instructors drive slower cars and some drive faster cars. Allowing the faster traffic by sooner as opposed to later is a good thing. This is especially true where a point is required. The car being passed has full control of when it is to be allowed and signals that he/she knows the overtaking car is there and which side the pass is to occur on. I'm also a fan of open passing (no point) but PCA does not appear to be ready for that.
Not everyone is comfortable with passing in a turn. If they don't want to participate, they can run in the intermediate groups where it is not allowed. I think that if you are an instructor or an advanced intermediate, it's a skill that you should have.
Not everyone is comfortable with passing in a turn. If they don't want to participate, they can run in the intermediate groups where it is not allowed. I think that if you are an instructor or an advanced intermediate, it's a skill that you should have.
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Tom & Larry-
With all due respect you are both wrong. The 3 best instructors I know, all with over 20 years instructing are not in favor of this change. 2 of them were racers one having won a national championship.
Their difference of opinion does not diminish their excellent credentials or their ability to teach. As has been said many times before on this board as well as other places DE's are not racing.
Please let's keep on topic.
With all due respect you are both wrong. The 3 best instructors I know, all with over 20 years instructing are not in favor of this change. 2 of them were racers one having won a national championship.
Their difference of opinion does not diminish their excellent credentials or their ability to teach. As has been said many times before on this board as well as other places DE's are not racing.
Please let's keep on topic.
I also am unsure of what you are actually promoting. Is it allowing late passes into the braking zone with a signal? Is it allowing side-by-side passing in the corner with a signal? Does it eliminate the need for a signal in normal passing zones?
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#50
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Bob,
1) Lets be a little clear here, the PCA DE program is one of the methods (the most common) for entrance into the PCA Club Racing program. The Club Racing Rule book says: "The applicant must present evidence of having completed twelve or more days of race track driving training and experience at driver's ed events, time trials, race schools or equivalent events within 24 months....The applicant must provide a signed certification from his/her sanctioning body's Chief Instructor (or equivalent)"... So, PCA's policy has not changed and the PCA DE Program remains the most common avenue to Club Racing.
2) I agree with you that there are some people who view DE as racing, however, most of the time, those folks are people who don't race and have never raced. The racers I know have a high degree of respect for the DE program and respect the rules. At times the perception is that Racers are a problem because of the speed differential between them and the DE instructor groups when in reality it is the evidence of the skill difference between a Racer and a DE instructor.
3) The other groups you mention are all Driver's Education Schools, here is from their websites. Chin Motorsports -"A leading provider of non-competition track events for sports car enthusiasts. Offering high-performance driver education for entry-level drivers, and quality practice time for experts."
Trackmasters - "We teach Hi-Performance Driving… not racing. Trackmasters, inc. has developed a training course to improve overall driving ability, by teaching car control dynamics. These skills are directly applicable to street and long distance driving. Students become more confident, and safety oriented, as they properly learn how to handle their vehicles.
1) Lets be a little clear here, the PCA DE program is one of the methods (the most common) for entrance into the PCA Club Racing program. The Club Racing Rule book says: "The applicant must present evidence of having completed twelve or more days of race track driving training and experience at driver's ed events, time trials, race schools or equivalent events within 24 months....The applicant must provide a signed certification from his/her sanctioning body's Chief Instructor (or equivalent)"... So, PCA's policy has not changed and the PCA DE Program remains the most common avenue to Club Racing.
2) I agree with you that there are some people who view DE as racing, however, most of the time, those folks are people who don't race and have never raced. The racers I know have a high degree of respect for the DE program and respect the rules. At times the perception is that Racers are a problem because of the speed differential between them and the DE instructor groups when in reality it is the evidence of the skill difference between a Racer and a DE instructor.
3) The other groups you mention are all Driver's Education Schools, here is from their websites. Chin Motorsports -"A leading provider of non-competition track events for sports car enthusiasts. Offering high-performance driver education for entry-level drivers, and quality practice time for experts."
Trackmasters - "We teach Hi-Performance Driving… not racing. Trackmasters, inc. has developed a training course to improve overall driving ability, by teaching car control dynamics. These skills are directly applicable to street and long distance driving. Students become more confident, and safety oriented, as they properly learn how to handle their vehicles.
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A comment on "trains". Trains develop when there is a disparity in speed and passing zones that are not frequent enough to allow enough cars to pass. At Sears Point/Infineon it's a long way from the entrance to turn 7 (a great turnm to pass in) to the exit of turn 10 for the short straight to turn 11 (another great turn to pass in). Turn 7 to 10's exit is about one-third the track followed by a straight where not more than 2-3 cars can generally get by. Without allowing a pass in turns, it creates trains that are hard to dissipate.
I won't get into the discussion about "advanced" drivers or instructors who have poor awareness of what cars are around them or refuse to slow to allow the train to get by.
From my perspective, this isn't about letting fast cars by, it's about awareness of what's going on around you and the ability to safely control the car in a turn (during a pass). If you are so focused on the track and what is coming that you have no time to look at the gauges or look for who is approaching from behind, I don't think you belong in an advanced or instructor run group.
I won't get into the discussion about "advanced" drivers or instructors who have poor awareness of what cars are around them or refuse to slow to allow the train to get by.
From my perspective, this isn't about letting fast cars by, it's about awareness of what's going on around you and the ability to safely control the car in a turn (during a pass). If you are so focused on the track and what is coming that you have no time to look at the gauges or look for who is approaching from behind, I don't think you belong in an advanced or instructor run group.
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Tom & Larry-
With all due respect you are both wrong. The 3 best instructors I know, all with over 20 years instructing are not in favor of this change. 2 of them were racers one having won a national championship.
Their difference of opinion does not diminish their excellent credentials or their ability to teach. As has been said many times before on this board as well as other places DE's are not racing.
Please let's keep on topic.
With all due respect you are both wrong. The 3 best instructors I know, all with over 20 years instructing are not in favor of this change. 2 of them were racers one having won a national championship.
Their difference of opinion does not diminish their excellent credentials or their ability to teach. As has been said many times before on this board as well as other places DE's are not racing.
Please let's keep on topic.
Those Instructors that who choose not to participate (but are capable) in these new passing rules are accommodated in another run group.
#54
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Tom, just move to Finland! We don't have any passing rules, or any other rules here. There's actually only one rule: Don't be a jackass...![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Passing in Finland
Truth be told, this is the case when you do arrive and drive (most weekdays for €40/car/entire day). With Porsche Club Finland, they have passing rules during DEs, just like in US.
I think allowing passing in corners is fine for the highest run groups, as long as everyone is playing along.
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Passing in Finland
Truth be told, this is the case when you do arrive and drive (most weekdays for €40/car/entire day). With Porsche Club Finland, they have passing rules during DEs, just like in US.
I think allowing passing in corners is fine for the highest run groups, as long as everyone is playing along.
#55
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Bull-
As I said 2 of the 3 senior instructors I referred to could easily pass (or allow somenoe else to pass them) in a corner as they had many years racing experience doing so.
It is just that they believe that DE's should be as safe as possible and I think any reasonable person would have to agree that passing in corners ups the ante.
As i said before I am in favor of this experiment as long as the rules as stated above are strictly enforced.
As I said 2 of the 3 senior instructors I referred to could easily pass (or allow somenoe else to pass them) in a corner as they had many years racing experience doing so.
It is just that they believe that DE's should be as safe as possible and I think any reasonable person would have to agree that passing in corners ups the ante.
As i said before I am in favor of this experiment as long as the rules as stated above are strictly enforced.
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Right, I got that the first time, and was saying that they are NOT the people Tom was talking about.
#59
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Bob,
1) Lets be a little clear here, the PCA DE program is one of the methods (the most common) for entrance into the PCA Club Racing program. The Club Racing Rule book says: "The applicant must present evidence of having completed twelve or more days of race track driving training and experience at driver's ed events, time trials, race schools or equivalent events within 24 months....The applicant must provide a signed certification from his/her sanctioning body's Chief Instructor (or equivalent)"... So, PCA's policy has not changed and the PCA DE Program remains the most common avenue to Club Racing.
2) I agree with you that there are some people who view DE as racing, however, most of the time, those folks are people who don't race and have never raced. The racers I know have a high degree of respect for the DE program and respect the rules. At times the perception is that Racers are a problem because of the speed differential between them and the DE instructor groups when in reality it is the evidence of the skill difference between a Racer and a DE instructor.
3) The other groups you mention are all Driver's Education Schools, here is from their websites. Chin Motorsports -"A leading provider of non-competition track events for sports car enthusiasts. Offering high-performance driver education for entry-level drivers, and quality practice time for experts."
Trackmasters - "We teach Hi-Performance Driving… not racing. Trackmasters, inc. has developed a training course to improve overall driving ability, by teaching car control dynamics. These skills are directly applicable to street and long distance driving. Students become more confident, and safety oriented, as they properly learn how to handle their vehicles.
1) Lets be a little clear here, the PCA DE program is one of the methods (the most common) for entrance into the PCA Club Racing program. The Club Racing Rule book says: "The applicant must present evidence of having completed twelve or more days of race track driving training and experience at driver's ed events, time trials, race schools or equivalent events within 24 months....The applicant must provide a signed certification from his/her sanctioning body's Chief Instructor (or equivalent)"... So, PCA's policy has not changed and the PCA DE Program remains the most common avenue to Club Racing.
2) I agree with you that there are some people who view DE as racing, however, most of the time, those folks are people who don't race and have never raced. The racers I know have a high degree of respect for the DE program and respect the rules. At times the perception is that Racers are a problem because of the speed differential between them and the DE instructor groups when in reality it is the evidence of the skill difference between a Racer and a DE instructor.
3) The other groups you mention are all Driver's Education Schools, here is from their websites. Chin Motorsports -"A leading provider of non-competition track events for sports car enthusiasts. Offering high-performance driver education for entry-level drivers, and quality practice time for experts."
Trackmasters - "We teach Hi-Performance Driving… not racing. Trackmasters, inc. has developed a training course to improve overall driving ability, by teaching car control dynamics. These skills are directly applicable to street and long distance driving. Students become more confident, and safety oriented, as they properly learn how to handle their vehicles.
Now the part of the speed differential is indeed a factor but as a racer i encounter this in a race all the time (laped traffic, broken cars) and the skills to deal with closing speeds is an essential skill for racers. Instructors shoud have this skill as second nature since they are responsible for the safety of the students. if they have a problem pointing by in a turn or lack the track awareness then their ability as an instructor is in question.
#60
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Now the part of the speed differential is indeed a factor but as a racer i encounter this in a race all the time (laped traffic, broken cars) and the skills to deal with closing speeds is an essential skill for racers. Instructors shoud have this skill as second nature since they are responsible for the safety of the students. if they have a problem pointing by in a turn or lack the track awareness then their ability as an instructor is in question.