mglobe

Mike pretty well nails it with this comment. I've run in non-PCA events that have open passing in the top run group. It works great, gives you a chance to work on some off-line skills, and makes the traffic flow better. I hope the test is successful, and that PCA adopts the new rules.

va122

Agreed! open passing is a step forward in linking DEs and racing, why teach bad habits to them, ownership of the corner is one of the hallmarks of the 13/13 rule.

Tom W

I've stopped doing PCA DEs because of the no passing in turns rule. I've driven for years with other groups that allow it (either with or without a point) and just get too frustrated when it is not allowed. If an instructor isn't capable of controlling the car to allow a pass in a turn or safely passing in a turn, how are they capable of being an instructor?

VERBOTN

Great stuff and as Dan pointed out it worked great at PBIR. You may also want to consider post session meetings and encourage peer-feedback. I participate in a group that effectively self polices itself, and at the drivers meetings provides direct feedback regarding on track situational awareness and courtesy.

Hopefully PCA will embrace this nationwide to provide a clear path to CR for those interested.

Larry Herman

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!!! We have a winner!

There are WAY too many people out there "instructing" that have no business doing so, but that is another thread, isn't it.

TedA

I got my taste of open passing with a point this past weekend with NASA at VIR. Absolutely awesome!!!!

It made things flow so much better.

smlporsche

Tom & Larry-
With all due respect you are both wrong. The 3 best instructors I know, all with over 20 years instructing are not in favor of this change. 2 of them were racers one having won a national championship.

Their difference of opinion does not diminish their excellent credentials or their ability to teach. As has been said many times before on this board as well as other places DE's are not racing.

Please let's keep on topic.

smlporsche

Ted-
Was your arm out or were you doing the passin'?

BTW, I agree that with proper execution things can flow very well.

TedA

Both....when you track a 944 you gotta leave the ego at home.

va122

I know instructors that can't even heel toe.

TedA

Eddie I think the point is not if it is racing or not. The point is in most situations, the guy behind you made it to your bumper becauase he is faster. Open passing allows the lead driver to be over taken without having to wait for a passing zone (with a point). Lead driver doesn't have to give a point, following driver doesn't have to take a point. If you drive at this level you should have the judgement required for both scenarios, the ability to pull it off smoothly without danger and the common cortesy of the overtaken driver to maybe ease up a little to make the pass happen.

It does help keeping trains from developing.

Veloce Raptor

So do I.

Driver8

TedA

There should not be trains forming in the advanced run groups. If there are then passing in the corners (with a signal) is not the solution.

Geoffrey

I'd be shocked that most people at the instructor level would not be in favor of this change. However, I know there is a large range of skill level within the intructor level...

Bob Rouleau

Guys,

A few thoughts here:

1) Those who refer to DE as the link to racing should be aware that while it was PCA policy in the past, it is no longer. Consider the impact on insurance claims. Some unfortunates are still able to claim for damage because Driver's Education is still seen as something distinct from racing where no conventional coverage is possible. PCA decided some years ago to divorce Drivers Education (there's that word again) from racing.

2) As the CI of my region, a lot of the problems I encounter are caused by people who see DE as racing. People who get upset because they can't pass in the corner may be candidates for the "wanna-be" racers category.

3) It is my view that the experiment with passing in corners is probably due to increased competition for track-day dollars from groups like Chin etc. who do allow such things. On the other hand, their lapping days are not branded nor considered Driver's Education.

Having said all that, our passing rules are rather liberal in our instructor run group with no issues whatsoever. On the other hand, our Red run group is not only the quickest but also the safest and most polite group on the track. Nobody has anything to prove in Red and all are out to enjoy themselves with friends they know well.

If event organizers have flaggers who know their business (we're lucky they are almost always the same gang at our home track) and are willing to make liberal use of the Black Flag for aggressive driving based on real-time flagger reports then yes, it can be done safely.

Best,