Having now driven a 911, I have to ask why would you ever want to race one????
06-05-2008, 02:00 PM
#46
The reason the 911's win is because they are built by porsche, not due to the engine configuration. If Porsche wasn't so hung up on the mystique of the 911 they could build a car that would trounce it. I honestly think that next year in the ALMS they will not be able to win, unless they race something other than the 911RSR (I was thinking a flat 8 cayman would work!). There is no way it is going to keep up with the V8 M3 and the V8 vette if they enter the class.
Well known is also that great drivers often depends on great engineers instead of trying to become one themselves. So I hope you don't mind if I say that driving skills is nice but often pros got no f*cking clue what goes on when going into detail.
As you already mentioned, cars are competing in classes. Classes has often regulations. Regulations are often used to make the field competitive. So comparing cars in classes is to compare how they do with a certain set of rules to follow. A 911 is very competitive in some and not at all in other classes. To make one general assumption of all classes is obviously not very rewarding.
Regarding the rear engine design, you can challenge it from two ways. Either from results - where we can see it has not been a failure. Or from a technical stand point where it certainly has its pros/cons too.
As your experience with what you drove, it's impossible for anyone to draw the conclusions from it, since we don't know how that particular car was. Therefore this discussion will not result in anything productive.
06-05-2008, 02:11 PM
#47
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I am relatively new to this sport and to racing but in my limited experience with a D class 82 911, setup is everything, and there are many tricks of the trade that are essential to being able to use the tail heavy design to one's advantage. Driving a poorly set-up 911 is frustrating and miserable; driving a well set-up 911, as other posters have attested, is an incredible experience.
06-05-2008, 02:30 PM
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Umm..... yeah it isnt' good enough. Who did you beat? Were they competitve national drivers? The number of people you beat is a good way to pound on your chest and feel good about yourself. The quality of people is the real key. You seem to care more about the number of people you beat by the multiple times you have repeated you beat the owner and 11 other people.
Having run with a number of SCCA national champions and running at the national tour events I'm pretty sure I can say that the fastest guys out there were definitely not the guys steering in opposite lock all the time and sliding there way around the course.
So here you first say you've been forming this idea for a while and then go on to say that Porsche actually does make one hell of a racecar. You're shooting your own argument in the foot.
Having run with a number of SCCA national champions and running at the national tour events I'm pretty sure I can say that the fastest guys out there were definitely not the guys steering in opposite lock all the time and sliding there way around the course.
So here you first say you've been forming this idea for a while and then go on to say that Porsche actually does make one hell of a racecar. You're shooting your own argument in the foot.
Well you pointed out how good you are as a driver and have a great record. I'm happy for you and I hope you enjoy it very much. There are some serious driving skills in this forum also and people here who work/worked with some of the best drivers in the world. So I think we can leave the "competence" part out of this.
Well known is also that great drivers often depends on great engineers instead of trying to become one themselves. So I hope you don't mind if I say that driving skills is nice but often pros got no f*cking clue what goes on when going into detail.
As you already mentioned, cars are competing in classes. Classes has often regulations. Regulations are often used to make the field competitive. So comparing cars in classes is to compare how they do with a certain set of rules to follow. A 911 is very competitive in some and not at all in other classes. To make one general assumption of all classes is obviously not very rewarding.
Regarding the rear engine design, you can challenge it from two ways. Either from results - where we can see it has not been a failure. Or from a technical stand point where it certainly has its pros/cons too.
As your experience with what you drove, it's impossible for anyone to draw the conclusions from it, since we don't know how that particular car was. Therefore this discussion will not result in anything productive.
Well known is also that great drivers often depends on great engineers instead of trying to become one themselves. So I hope you don't mind if I say that driving skills is nice but often pros got no f*cking clue what goes on when going into detail.
As you already mentioned, cars are competing in classes. Classes has often regulations. Regulations are often used to make the field competitive. So comparing cars in classes is to compare how they do with a certain set of rules to follow. A 911 is very competitive in some and not at all in other classes. To make one general assumption of all classes is obviously not very rewarding.
Regarding the rear engine design, you can challenge it from two ways. Either from results - where we can see it has not been a failure. Or from a technical stand point where it certainly has its pros/cons too.
As your experience with what you drove, it's impossible for anyone to draw the conclusions from it, since we don't know how that particular car was. Therefore this discussion will not result in anything productive.
Circuit Notice how I didn't post how many people I beat in my initial post I was there to have fun....I'm not one to thump my chest, nor am I concerned with that, I intend to race prof. so I don't care about my speed in relation to a bunch of club guys, however I do respect them and won't call their performance pathetic, but you asked......
Second no none of them were nationally competetive........whats your point????? just because people don't want to run with the SCCA and run nationally doesn't mean none of them are good......
I don't know if I've beat "nationally competetive SCCA auto X er's" lol, but the proudest moment of my life was when I beat my dad in the same car (It took 3 years, but now I can do it on a regular basis), a professional, four time 24hr race winner (GM factory team, Chrysler factory, and one year with a privateer Porsche team), a skip barber instructor for 15 years, someone who had the record in IMSA for fastlaps in a season (9), raced on the same teams as guy's like Dorey Schroeder and beat them. Someone that Davids Hobbs told "was the fastest he had ever seen someone go through the esses at Road Atlanta". If you had read my previous post's I wouldn't have had to retype it (I hate stooping down to this level of "I know a guy" or "my dad did this" but I keep getting dragged into the mud about my driving by a bunch of people who have never seen me race or met me). Obviously my dad isn't very fast, but it made me proud to beat a driver of that caliber.....I'm sure it still isn't good enough for you, I guess I'll have to find some of those "nationally competetive SCCA guys" but I figured I'd mention it....
Also could we cut out the personal attacks on me and my driving, whenever I get the money to buy a camera and post video, feel free to RIP IT APART, but until then could we refrain from making uneducated attacks...... I started this thread by stating my opinion and asking a question, looking for logical arguments form both sides. Not to get attacked since I disagree with your view point....I thank people like larry have been kind enough to offer answers and post relevent informative responses....
06-05-2008, 02:38 PM
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So let me get this straight. You make the statement "Why would anyone want to race a 911" on a board where most of the members at the least drive their 911 on the track and some even drive them professionally and you can't figure out why your not getting any warm and fuzzy responses?
Um okay.
Um okay.
06-05-2008, 02:39 PM
#51
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So let me get this straight. You make the statement "Why would anyone want to race a 911" on a board where most of the members at the least drive their 911 on the track and some even drive them professionally and you can't figure out why your not getting any warm and fuzzy responses?
Um okay.
Um okay.
Hey now, he's just trying to get his post count up...let him go.
06-05-2008, 02:43 PM
#52
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This is the last post for me in this thread. I'm leaning towards bobt993's description. Even moreso after his last post.
Yep you waited till the 3rd post to do that numbers thing.
So, no they weren't nationally competitve is what you are saying and that supports all of our claims that your beating them in an auto-x says nothing about the car, your driving or really anything else for that matter. You can still be nationally competitve and not run SCCA national tour.
Circuit Notice how I didn't post how many people I beat in my initial post I was there to have fun....I'm not one to thump my chest, nor am I concerned with that, I intend to race prof. so I don't care about my speed in relation to a bunch of club guys, however I do respect them and won't call their performance pathetic, but you asked......
So, no they weren't nationally competitve is what you are saying and that supports all of our claims that your beating them in an auto-x says nothing about the car, your driving or really anything else for that matter. You can still be nationally competitve and not run SCCA national tour.
06-05-2008, 02:45 PM
#53
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06-05-2008, 02:49 PM
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So let me get this straight. You make the statement "Why would anyone want to race a 911" on a board where most of the members at the least drive their 911 on the track and some even drive them professionally and you can't figure out why your not getting any warm and fuzzy responses?
Um okay.
Um okay.
I'm not asking for fuzzy answers, I just didn't expect a bunch of disrespectful attacks....
Ohh and there are people who races Porsche's who don't race 911's, but sorry I forgot we aren't real enthusiasts, and don't drive real "porsches" my mistake I failed to realize how much 911 snobbery still exists......
Ohh and Circuit, now that I think back I did beat a 3 time SCCA national champion......In his FV, by 2.2 seconds.....I forgot he was a national champion because I didn't think he was very quick....so I didn't think it proved anything, but since you seem so enamored with "nationally competetive SCCA" there you go.....still not sure what that proves but you seem to care....
06-05-2008, 02:55 PM
#55
My point with Porsche as a manuf., is if you had any other company try to race a rear engine car they would be the laughing stock of the field, and in my opinion the only reason the rear engine design has won anything is because porsche ran it......as I recall Porsche did make just a few cars that weren't rear engine and I have some recollection of them winning also.....
The list of what makes a certain car win would take forever to make, will never be complete and is still evolving. Porsche Motorsport surely knows how to pick their fights and play the rulebooks, but they also lost races.
06-05-2008, 02:57 PM
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Snobbery has nothing to do with it. If you don't think the 911 is for you that is what you should have said. Not asking everyone else why they would possibly want to do it. You are assuming that because you consider yourself a good driver( you may very well be) and your experience driving it didn't meet your expectations then that should speak for everyone else.
You seem to be the one that is putting your nose in the air with this issue.
If we follow your logic then I guess we all should immediately sell our cars and buy something else.
You seem to be the one that is putting your nose in the air with this issue.
If we follow your logic then I guess we all should immediately sell our cars and buy something else.
06-05-2008, 02:57 PM
#57
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Some technical points:
1) You ran on 10 year old tires. I assume you know, from all your racing experience, that if the tires are questionable, then everything you feel in the car is questionable. If you have the experience you say, then you have felt drastic balance changes in cars as tires run out of grip due to age or heat cycles. Impossible to say if the handling you felt has any relationship to what the car would do on fresh tires.
2) The 911 is a bad design, perfected.
3) I don't follow the tail out comments from the photo. Maybe I am not seeing it, but the avatar looks to me like a car in severe Understeer, not oversteer.
Some non-technical points:
You have not been here long, and really have little clue about the people, personalities and history of this place. You have come on pretty strong, with a lot of near attacks and pretty much a know-it-all attitude. You have said some silly things in other posts - including on directed at me where you implied that you have seen the content of every video ever made of any decent pro driver. I mention that to show that you really have not bothered to develop much credibility here. Now it is your choice if you want to keep doing battle with everyone or figure out how to make friends. This place is like a neighborhood bar - Everyone I have ever seen (and I have been here a long time) has been welcomed. Those who choose to be obnoxious create their own environment.
Now you get to choose what kind of patron of the neighborhood bar you care to be, and most here will then act in response to your decision.
1) You ran on 10 year old tires. I assume you know, from all your racing experience, that if the tires are questionable, then everything you feel in the car is questionable. If you have the experience you say, then you have felt drastic balance changes in cars as tires run out of grip due to age or heat cycles. Impossible to say if the handling you felt has any relationship to what the car would do on fresh tires.
2) The 911 is a bad design, perfected.
3) I don't follow the tail out comments from the photo. Maybe I am not seeing it, but the avatar looks to me like a car in severe Understeer, not oversteer.
Some non-technical points:
You have not been here long, and really have little clue about the people, personalities and history of this place. You have come on pretty strong, with a lot of near attacks and pretty much a know-it-all attitude. You have said some silly things in other posts - including on directed at me where you implied that you have seen the content of every video ever made of any decent pro driver. I mention that to show that you really have not bothered to develop much credibility here. Now it is your choice if you want to keep doing battle with everyone or figure out how to make friends. This place is like a neighborhood bar - Everyone I have ever seen (and I have been here a long time) has been welcomed. Those who choose to be obnoxious create their own environment.
Now you get to choose what kind of patron of the neighborhood bar you care to be, and most here will then act in response to your decision.
06-05-2008, 02:59 PM
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I think its called they don't want to trailer there car to topeka kansas for 3 runs, lol
There is a reason no other manufacturer has tried......I can't argue its worse, but if there was an advantage to it wouldn't everyone have clamored to make a rear engine car....lets think about other rear engine cars.....hmm the corvair......
I think your opinion is wrong and can not determine how good the rear engine design is. Simply because a race would then always be won by a Porsche because it was made by Porsche and to me there are so many other parameters on who wins a race than just the brand. It's just too simple to make a conclusion like that. I will not go into argue with this.
The list of what makes a certain car win would take forever to make, will never be complete and is still evolving. Porsche Motorsport surely knows how to pick their fights and play the rulebooks, but they also lost races.
The list of what makes a certain car win would take forever to make, will never be complete and is still evolving. Porsche Motorsport surely knows how to pick their fights and play the rulebooks, but they also lost races.
