Heel and Toe at DEs
#106
Rennlist Member
Agreed, it is a ridiculous argument. It's supposed lack of importance is propagated by those who don't know how to do it, and cannot or will not learn. All 3 of my boys have learned how to properly and smoothly do double-declutch downshifts. It's just a natural rhythm in the braking cycle.
And his youngest son was proficient at it for his first DE as a GREEN GROUP driver ( I was his first instructor which was an honor). Despite his skill level, Dad had no problem with him staying in Green for an entire season (he could easily pass for solo with alot groups from the start).
#107
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
It's one of those things that you have to pass on. I, on the other hand, had to learn it myself. I used to autocross a 1966 Spitfire in the '70s and the only way to get it back into 1st (straight cut) was to double-declutch. Won many an event with that car because I was one of the few who didn't have to lug 2nd coming out of the tight turns.
#108
Rennlist Member
HT, double clutch downshift, rev match, shifting w/o the clutch up/down....My best friend taught me when I was in college... he was a Philly region autox nerd and local hot shoe went on to have a ton of track race cars. Well anyway, whenever I messed up or was off by a bit he used to punch me in the arm so damn hard !!! I learned quick.
#109
Rennlist Member
WOW, missed this one as it grew and grew. (2nd only to the 968 guy thread over on Off Topic?) Can't believe it's even up for debate.
Personally, started with the heel on the brake pedal method on my Scirocco when I was 16 and, damn it, I'm going to do it like Mark Donohue did with his IROC car! Then it was the opposite way two years later with my first 911. Never really had a problem in any car I've had, or driven, for that matter.
Now onto left foot braking. Anyone here with SRF experience? Better yet, when they were new and were Sports Renaults? Damn things had a piece of metal keeping your left foot over on THAT side, only to be used for clutching. Haven't been in one since about 1985, so maybe someone came to his senses and they removed that lame-*** "feature".
Personally, started with the heel on the brake pedal method on my Scirocco when I was 16 and, damn it, I'm going to do it like Mark Donohue did with his IROC car! Then it was the opposite way two years later with my first 911. Never really had a problem in any car I've had, or driven, for that matter.
Now onto left foot braking. Anyone here with SRF experience? Better yet, when they were new and were Sports Renaults? Damn things had a piece of metal keeping your left foot over on THAT side, only to be used for clutching. Haven't been in one since about 1985, so maybe someone came to his senses and they removed that lame-*** "feature".
#110
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Now onto left foot braking. Anyone here with SRF experience? Better yet, when they were new and were Sports Renaults? Damn things had a piece of metal keeping your left foot over on THAT side, only to be used for clutching. Haven't been in one since about 1985, so maybe someone came to his senses and they removed that lame-*** "feature".
Barber cars have the same issue. Stupid steering column.
#111
...... The difference was simply amazing compared to the other drivers. It has take me 2 and a half years of driving on the street both heel toeing and double clutching to feel that I am truly profficient at it. Also there is a reason Panizzi has never one a WRC championship... As Bryan said hes prob used to the sequentials in the wrc cars, also as he pointed out big dif between slow speed rallying and being at 150mph, a little slide at 60 is easily corrected, at 150mph its a whole different ball game.
OK a bit OT here, but this thread can tolerate it.
Coming to the rescue of my man Panizzi.....
MTosi...and the reason he never on a WRC championship has nothing to do with HT of course. I hope you're not trying to draw a linkage between the youtube HT less EVO test session and Panizzi's abilities to secure a WRC championship! In the early 2000's when I was watching WRC's, Panizzi was the undisputed tarmac specialist! He won more than a handful of rallies. All on tarmac I believe. The marques he drove for hired him primarily to secure points for the relatively few tarmac rallies.
The reason he never won a WRC championship is that his non-tarmac abilities were not nearly as strong as needed to be a bonifide WRC championship contender. With the vast majority of rallies being non-tarmac, you have to be tops here like Panizzi's peers of the time were (i.e. WRC champions Makinen, Gronholm, Loeb, Burns).
Now if you want a video clip that catches Panizzi at a semi-famous moment, check this one out. Panizzi has amassed such a large lead, that on one of the last stages, he tosses this out to the crowd...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3lycIaNMfc
Mike
#112
Ken, that piece of metal is long gone. Never knew why it was even there. We learned early on to keep up the momentum to left foot brake and H/T! The only impediment to doing any of those techniques is the accelerator pedal "lift" bar for use in case your throttle sticks (Bet none of you DE guys have that on your pedal!).
#113
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
It amazes me that this thread is 7 pages. Hell toe = essential . It is becoming a lost art though, I mean F1 drivers dont have to do it and they're the "best" so why should any of us? When you think about it, it's possible to get into formula one without knowing how to heel toe. Also there are plenty of people who "heel toe" but they are plain awful, just sit at turn one at lime rock and watch, very rarely do you see someone come into the braking zone smoothly transition from gas to brake, and then go through thier downshifts and have the attitude of the car does not change. Alot of cars you can see the nose lift off, and then plant again, lift off, plant, because when the go for the match they release pressure one the brakes. Ill never forget sitting at turn one at lime rock during the first rennsport and watching Jacky Ickx come into the corner with perfectly matched and smooth downshifts. The difference was simply amazing compared to the other drivers. It has take me 2 and a half years of driving on the street both heel toeing and double clutching to feel that I am truly profficient at it. Also there is a reason Panizzi has never one a WRC championship... As Bryan said hes prob used to the sequentials in the wrc cars, also as he pointed out big dif between slow speed rallying and being at 150mph, a little slide at 60 is easily corrected, at 150mph its a whole different ball game.
#114
MTosi...and the reason he never on a WRC championship has nothing to do with HT of course. I hope you're not trying to draw a linkage between the youtube HT less EVO test session and Panizzi's abilities to secure a WRC championship!
Toivenen all the way (long time ago I know, I wasn't alive back then) That man knew how to HT......and for your viewing entertainment Toivenen in the rothmans 911 watch the car control and how smooth he is I get chills when I watch it, simply amazing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnO5ZYjqxhw
And finn thanks, I catch alot more sypmathy and agreement when I post stuff like that here. When I post stuff like that on the F1 or BMW forums, I have to dawn my nomex from the amount of flaming I get.
#115
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Nürburg DE Greystones IRL
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent idea!
Probably going to be a lost art in the near future with the double clutch gearboxes, but certainly a skill that is essential for high performance driving as we know it.
Probably going to be a lost art in the near future with the double clutch gearboxes, but certainly a skill that is essential for high performance driving as we know it.
#116
uninformed gas bag
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
Rennlist Member
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
Rennlist Member
Mooty, that's probably my problem, a torn ligment and a broken right ankle that's not that mobile anymore. By the way, in the early days of racing HT was described as Heel-Toe-Heel. The old guys used the heel of their foot on the brake and put their "toe" on the accelerator to blip it. I guess it was in the late sixties/early seventies when the common emergence of disk brakes made modulation of the brake pedal more important that most pro drivers started making the switch to that method we all know and love today. I guess the old drums were so ineffective/faded you didn't modulate, you just mashed them.
By the way, since we're talking advanced driving techniques does anyone teach left foot braking at DEs?
By the way, since we're talking advanced driving techniques does anyone teach left foot braking at DEs?
#117
Rennlist Member
It amazes me that this thread is 7 pages. Hell toe = essential . It is becoming a lost art though, I mean F1 drivers dont have to do it and they're the "best" so why should any of us? When you think about it, it's possible to get into formula one without knowing how to heel toe. Also there are plenty of people who "heel toe" but they are plain awful, just sit at turn one at lime rock and watch, very rarely do you see someone come into the braking zone smoothly transition from gas to brake, and then go through thier downshifts and have the attitude of the car does not change. Alot of cars you can see the nose lift off, and then plant again, lift off, plant, because when the go for the match they release pressure one the brakes. Ill never forget sitting at turn one at lime rock during the first rennsport and watching Jacky Ickx come into the corner with perfectly matched and smooth downshifts. The difference was simply amazing compared to the other drivers. It has take me 2 and a half years of driving on the street both heel toeing and double clutching to feel that I am truly profficient at it. Also there is a reason Panizzi has never won a WRC championship... As Bryan said hes prob used to the sequentials in the wrc cars, also as he pointed out big dif between slow speed rallying and being at 150mph, a little slide at 60 is easily corrected, at 150mph its a whole different ball game.
Agreed, it is a ridiculous argument. It's supposed lack of importance is propagated by those who don't know how to do it, and cannot or will not learn. All 3 of my boys have learned how to properly and smoothly do double-declutch downshifts. It's just a natural rhythm in the braking cycle.
I had not paid attention to this thread for about a week and decided to see WTH people were still talking about. Two things are clear: 1) for smoothness and balance, you have to heel-and-toe for fast track work, solo or not, instructor or not; 2) if this is all we have to talk about, spring had better get here quickly.
BTW, I learned to heel-and-toe and double-clutch when I was a single-celled gamete. Here is a photo of me about to win my first DE:
#118
Drifting
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#120
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Aww TD you coward. If you won't stand behind what you posted I will.
---TD in DC has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to
---Quote (Originally by Mark in Baltimore)---
Someone got "the joke"!
---End Quote---
I thought the joke was that you haven't been that close to an ovum since then!
---TD in DC has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to
---Quote (Originally by Mark in Baltimore)---
Someone got "the joke"!
---End Quote---
I thought the joke was that you haven't been that close to an ovum since then!
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.