Paul 996

Ok, this is rev matching not HT but here is a funny.. my ultimate practice on this was getting stuck driving a car home across the state with a broken clutch cable back in college. The only real pita was bump starting it from a stop in 1st gear...crank n go.

When you got it right all it takes is 1 finger's worth of pressure on the shifter.

It was fun explaining to the state trooper what was up as we took off kinda funny from the gas station and then rolled through the 1st stop sign.

M758

heel & toe is not a racing skill. It is an essential skill for effective track driving. I don't really know it is required for solo driving, but I do recommend that everyone on track learn to heel & toe for track use. It can be quite effective on the street to. Now... as an instructor I do not teach heel & toe at the track. It is too complex to teach there with all the other things going on. The most I will do is to show a student how to heel & toe and tell them to pratice on the street. I learned to heel and toe in this manner. I had an instrutor show me the foot positions and movements and then I just started practicing on the streets. It took me a few months of on the street practice to get to the point I was good on the track. Learing to heel and toe on street is harder than on the track since you don't depress the brakes as deep as on the track, but once you can do it on the street you can do it on the track. Learning it at the track is very very hard since it is easy to make a mistake and on the road you can leave space for that. On the track some else can run up your butt pretty easy or you can overshoot a corner. That does not even mention that extra mental capacity it takes to learn the skill. Once learned it becomes second nature and therefore easy at the track.

sechsgang

oh, Im sorry, you said with the clutch pedal down, I thought you meant left foot braking with the gear engaged...sorry!


But 100 percent, the gas disconnects when your IN gear AND on the brake...

TR6

I can H/T my 911 far better than I can my BMW M coupe. Has to do with pedal position difference between the two cars. But also the 911 has a solid lightweight flywheel whereas the BMW has a heavy, dual mass flywheel that just doesn't want to rev when you tell it to. The 911 goes "Zing!" when you touch the gas but the BMW says "Huh? What? You want me to do what?"

I did exactly the same thing once in a Triumph TR6 when the clutch hydraulics failed a long way from home. Exactly as you describe driving it. I was able to shift it without the clutch except for complete stops. At stoplights, I had to kill the motor, put it in first, and then when the light turned green, start the car with it in first gear. I prayed for green lights....

smlporsche

Wow, interesting thread.
Several points:
First, I was there instructing and have to agree that Florida Citrus runs one of the best DE's anywhere. Kudo's to the talent they bring to an event.
Second, I took (and passed !) the national instructors course which was developed by Pete Tremper in conjunction with several other people in an effort to have a uniform set of teaching guidelines so that no matter where you go a begining drover (blue) is on approximately the same level.
Out of the PCA manual the following skills are required before a student is allowed to be signed off to intermediate (white)

1. Uses the full track consistantly
2. Very smooth inputs, especially braking
3. Uses Occular vision in most corners
4. Carries reasonable momentum into corners
5. Practices effective H/T braking/downshifting
6. Demonstrates competant car control and recovery skills
7. Prompt and courteous passing signals
8. Good driving record
9. Calmly deals with fast traffic and close passing
10. Demonstrates full compliance with Region's DE philosophy.

There you go a great check list to determine wether a student should be soloed.

Did anyone else on here get some fast laps in that Carrera GT on slicks?? Holy sh^$t !!!

RedlineMan

Hey;

I don't believe setting hard and fast rules is particularly helpful in cases such as this. There are different ways to accomplish a smooth downshift without unduly upsetting the car. There can also be mechanical or physical reasons for someone not utilizing H&T. If said person can get the car around the track in a smooth and controlled manner, I'm not sure it is of overiding concern exactly how they do it.

Having said that, H&T obviously is a pretty basic staple of performance driving. A flawed H&T attempt is just as potentially ruinous as any other botched attempt, regfardless of style, but given equal alacrity in the various ways of doing it, I'd prefer to see them perfect H&T. That method is certainly and ultimately prefered.

paradisenb

Well, there you have it.

CGT
I did not take them up on the ride offer. I didn't see harnesses in the cars and I don't drive/ride on track w/o H&N. I did see them blazing by others on the straights. I took a ride with Jim S, who has the same basic car as mine, and one went by us sooo fast we both had to comment with our eyes.

smlporsche

If there ever was a car that needed a 5/6 point harness as part of its standard equipment the CGT is it.

weneversleep

I had the worst time trying to learn to heel-toe when I was tracking my S2000. I could never understand why.

Then, I bought my E36 M3. As in any BMW (or Porsche for that matter), the pedals are setup nicely for heel-toeing, even for those of us with narrow feet--the gas pedal angles "under" the brake pedal, so it's easy to get the heel of the foot swung over to the gas while the ball of the foot is on the brake.

By the end of my first track weekend in the M3, I had heel-toeing pretty much down pat.

So, I really think it is due to the pedal arrangement. The pedals in the S2000 are "next to each other", but with a big gap. I can't put half the foot on the brake/half on the gas, or put the ball of my foot on the brake/heel on the gas; they're just too far apart, at least for my anatomy.

Just another data point...

TraqGear

Jackie/Al,
Being a relatively new instructor, I would encourage a student to learn effective HT on the street at slow speeds in a parking lot or an appropriate place they can find. Of course, at slow speeds, the brake won't be drepressed enough to effectively blip the throttle, but the key is to have the "muscle memory". It would be great to go over it in a classroom environment and perhaps give a diagram that shows a step-by-step process. But, for me to sit on the passenger side and teach HT on the straight at 100mph+....it ain't happening. It's too much to process at high speeds (with me in the seat anyway). I do encourage that they go through their gearbox when downshifting to make the car a little "happier". My 2 pennies.

Crazy Canuck

HT is a requirement to advance run groups in Rennsport Region.

VERBOTN

Not advocating "learning" in traffic but an excellent place to practice is on an an exit/on (clover-leaf) ramp. I spent an afternoon doing it, midway thru the local PD asked me what I was up to and I explained it. No infraction no ticket but it did look odd to them.

Now if you want to fan the fires lets begin the double-clutch thread

Flying Finn

+1

IMO there should be absolutely no argument whether you need to heel & toe or not.

Same thing with the friggin' shuffle steering, drives me nuts when people say it's good to shuffle steer!

And I know some very few pro drivers do it, of course there always is someone who can do things succesfully the wrong way, for example Jean Alesi comes to mind & there are also plenty of i.e. pro hockey players who's skating technique is far from being good. But to teach someone the wrong technique is wrong even if few exceptions exist.

Bryan Watts

Agreed on the correlation between teaching correct techniques with relation to H&T and steering. Back when I was crazy enough to climb into the right seat of a street car with an unknown driver, I taught the 9 and 3 method, even though I didn't use it myself. I use a hybrid somewhere in between that just works for me. Amazingly enough, I believe my style is genetic...in-car video shows that my father and I steer EXACTLY the same way even though we've never been on track in the same car together and never instructed each other. There's nothing good about shuffle steering, except that it works for me.

I've been known to shift without the clutch when I forget that I'm no longer racing single seaters, but it's certainly not the correct technique to be teaching. I don't understand the argument that H&T isn't a required technique for driving quickly and safely on the race track.

TraqGear

Bryan....love your car. Is it built or a factory race car? I don't know much about bimmers.

In Germany, they taught us "10 & 2" steering. But, they also require you to run with your windows up. Which, isn't that bad of an idea when it's 102 outside. I've heard arguments from both sides concerning the "windows up" or "windows down" method.