Heel and Toe at DEs
02-18-2008, 06:54 PM
#46
Drifting
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http://www.rrtsuspension.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=232
I have a lot more pictures, but I haven't gotten my website back up since switching servers.
Back on topic, here's a good link to a write up that helps newbies get up to speed on H&T:
http://www.tarheelbmwcca.org/Htoe2-msp.doc
02-18-2008, 07:06 PM
#47
Three Wheelin'
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I think Heel-Toeing is a definite skill that should be taught to any competitive driver. A DE "entrant" however, is supposed to be learning how to drive his/her car safely and efficiently at the upper end of the scale, but not in a competitive environment. Therefore, based on the "entrant's" goals and aspirations I think it should be up to each individual whether or not he, or she, wants to develop that particular skill.
02-18-2008, 07:38 PM
#48
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So you don't believe that H&T is a required skill for driving safely and efficiently at the upper end of the scale? I'm not saying teach H&T to folks in their first DE, but it's certainly a skill that should be required as you progress in speed and experience into upper run groups exactly because it makes you a safer and more efficient driver.
02-18-2008, 08:17 PM
#49
Race Car
While I agree with you guys point of view, there are some things that are arguable with this being a requirement for advanced driving approval.
#1 Most people in DE are no where near 10/10ths of the cars potential, and at 6,7/10ths you can shift easily and not upset the balance of the car too much and still go fast enough not to be a moving roadblock. In fact if you listen closely at club races you'll hear several racers that dont use it in some places that others do at various tracks. The result is that there is no corner that every racer blips the throttle on, so in theory, it cant be neccessary at every turn and in essence at any turn.
#2 It's not impossible to downshift without upsetting the balance of the car at all, if you have slowed down enough to where you are not in a high rpm range for the lower gear. It's not fast, but but not terribly slow either.
#3 Many people may be advanced and still driving stock cars with pedals that are more of a burden to hell/toe that to just skip it because of pedal placement and width.
#4 Final dillmma is do you now check ride all that people in the advanced group to check and then move people down, sounds pretty arduous to me, and if you dont then other people will cry foul.
#5 And as mentioned above, who wants to be in the car with students just learning how to do it so they can get in advanced solo.
With that being said, requiring someone to "know" how to do it, and policing them doing it is two different things. I remember once taking a year one camaro for a few laps at Road Atlanta and the pedals were WAY too far apart to blip, in fact I rode with a Panoz school instructor and racer. Niether one of us could get to that pedal, and I wear 13's, but that doesnt mean we didnt do some fast laps. Even though we "knew" how to, actually being able to was the difficulty. And making people "know" how to do something that doesnt "have" to be used is a bit over the top IMO.
But I welcome less people in the advanced group at any DE.
#1 Most people in DE are no where near 10/10ths of the cars potential, and at 6,7/10ths you can shift easily and not upset the balance of the car too much and still go fast enough not to be a moving roadblock. In fact if you listen closely at club races you'll hear several racers that dont use it in some places that others do at various tracks. The result is that there is no corner that every racer blips the throttle on, so in theory, it cant be neccessary at every turn and in essence at any turn.
#2 It's not impossible to downshift without upsetting the balance of the car at all, if you have slowed down enough to where you are not in a high rpm range for the lower gear. It's not fast, but but not terribly slow either.
#3 Many people may be advanced and still driving stock cars with pedals that are more of a burden to hell/toe that to just skip it because of pedal placement and width.
#4 Final dillmma is do you now check ride all that people in the advanced group to check and then move people down, sounds pretty arduous to me, and if you dont then other people will cry foul.
#5 And as mentioned above, who wants to be in the car with students just learning how to do it so they can get in advanced solo.
With that being said, requiring someone to "know" how to do it, and policing them doing it is two different things. I remember once taking a year one camaro for a few laps at Road Atlanta and the pedals were WAY too far apart to blip, in fact I rode with a Panoz school instructor and racer. Niether one of us could get to that pedal, and I wear 13's, but that doesnt mean we didnt do some fast laps. Even though we "knew" how to, actually being able to was the difficulty. And making people "know" how to do something that doesnt "have" to be used is a bit over the top IMO.
But I welcome less people in the advanced group at any DE.
02-18-2008, 09:35 PM
#50
Three Wheelin'
It's not...I was kidding around and didn't do a good job of it. You can only track out so far without going into opposing traffic. I find that I typically have to slow down too much to make effective use of the H/T technique. On the backroads it's a little different.
02-18-2008, 09:35 PM
#51
Instructor
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Well, gents, don't know if I should post with the instructors, but here's some feedback, green group perspective. I was at the FLA Citrus DE at Roebling this w/e. It was my first DE. I met Eddie and my instructor was Ed Clowser ( what a great guy). On my 8th and last run, Ed had me H/T by rolling my foot over to blip the throttle and match revs for shifting. What a revelation! No more chirping the tires on downshifts, especially in turns 1 and 4. Much smoother driving. The demo that Ed gave helped my understanding immensely and the technique he showed me made so much more sense than that in the books. Came naturally. Had a great time and hope I didn't hold you and your students up too much. BTW, i was in the gold '86 944 turbo. Great reading your inputs also.
02-18-2008, 09:39 PM
#52
My first DE I was way more concerned with watching for flags, entering and exiting corners properly and pushing my speed. I was not ready to learn...
Any good videos you know of where one might study the technique? Or a good description? I would love to begin learning this spring in my '89 C4.
thanks!
Any good videos you know of where one might study the technique? Or a good description? I would love to begin learning this spring in my '89 C4.
thanks!
02-18-2008, 09:52 PM
#55
Drifting
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Back on topic, here's a good link to a write up that helps newbies get up to speed on H&T:
http://www.tarheelbmwcca.org/Htoe2-msp.doc
http://www.tarheelbmwcca.org/Htoe2-msp.doc
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/how...2/article.html
http://www.motoringfile.com/2005/07/...g_made_simple/
Couple videos from Google on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9XXW25GA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoZeuSgEj4
There's plenty more out there as well.
02-18-2008, 10:49 PM
#58
Three Wheelin'
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Unless you got a EEE width foot there's no way you can heel and toe with a stock 911/930 pedal set-up. I had to raise my brake pedal adjustment about 1/2" to get it level enough with my accelerator while mashing the brakes. I'm not saying HT isn't a useful skill to learn, and you are definitely faster and easier on the driveline than if you don't, but a normal DE participant had better not be driving his car on Anywhere USA Blvd like he's driving on that track. I think DEs are a great way to teach good smooth car control, recovery from out of shape situations, and to develop a little butt sensitivity so you recognize what the car's doing before you get beyond the point of no return, but its not racing school. If they want to learn 10/10ths let 'em go to comp school.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but IMHO, I just don't believe lack of a student's H&T capability should hold them back in DE. A student who shows good car control and awareness should be given some solo time too. After all, when he's out on the street practicing what you taught him he's not going to have his coach sitting next to him.
Quite frankly, I kind of disagree with the whole DE premise. A DE should have skid pad work, car control, and accident avoidance manuvers, its too much leaning toward "racing" skills and who can run the lowest lap times. I like track time and driving fast too, but a street car on a race track promoting those that turn the lowest lap times to a "higher" level is not the way to do it. Get a competition car if you want to run timed laps. But, if that's what floats your boat, sail on.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but IMHO, I just don't believe lack of a student's H&T capability should hold them back in DE. A student who shows good car control and awareness should be given some solo time too. After all, when he's out on the street practicing what you taught him he's not going to have his coach sitting next to him.
Quite frankly, I kind of disagree with the whole DE premise. A DE should have skid pad work, car control, and accident avoidance manuvers, its too much leaning toward "racing" skills and who can run the lowest lap times. I like track time and driving fast too, but a street car on a race track promoting those that turn the lowest lap times to a "higher" level is not the way to do it. Get a competition car if you want to run timed laps. But, if that's what floats your boat, sail on.
02-18-2008, 11:02 PM
#59
King of Cool
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Rennlist Member
While I agree with you guys point of view, there are some things that are arguable with this being a requirement for advanced driving approval.
#1 Most people in DE are no where near 10/10ths of the cars potential, and at 6,7/10ths you can shift easily and not upset the balance of the car too much and still go fast enough not to be a moving roadblock. In fact if you listen closely at club races you'll hear several racers that dont use it in some places that others do at various tracks. The result is that there is no corner that every racer blips the throttle on, so in theory, it cant be neccessary at every turn and in essence at any turn.
#2 It's not impossible to downshift without upsetting the balance of the car at all, if you have slowed down enough to where you are not in a high rpm range for the lower gear. It's not fast, but not terribly slow either...
#1 Most people in DE are no where near 10/10ths of the cars potential, and at 6,7/10ths you can shift easily and not upset the balance of the car too much and still go fast enough not to be a moving roadblock. In fact if you listen closely at club races you'll hear several racers that dont use it in some places that others do at various tracks. The result is that there is no corner that every racer blips the throttle on, so in theory, it cant be neccessary at every turn and in essence at any turn.
#2 It's not impossible to downshift without upsetting the balance of the car at all, if you have slowed down enough to where you are not in a high rpm range for the lower gear. It's not fast, but not terribly slow either...
While maybe not preparing for racing, DE is to learn to drive fast. If not, why go to the track at all? Slow you can drive anywehre. Of course it needs to be done well and safely but the point of all that is not to learn to drive nice and slow.
So even when driving 7, 6, 5 o whatever 10th, you should always do it in a way as if you were driving fast.
Same way when you're stuck behind a slow, not so great driver, you should never follow that person & his/her bad lines even when you're driving really slow. Of course you can go through a corner using a weird lin when doing 2/10s but you still should use a proper line. Never do things the wrong way even though you can (because you're crusing), if you d so , you'll never lean to it correctly.
Way to learn (basically everything) is to do it slow enough so that you can do it correctly, repeat, repeat, repeat until you can do it correctly and fast. This goes for learning to play an instrument, being an circus act and also for learning to drive fast.
02-18-2008, 11:02 PM
#60
Rennlist
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Anyone ride a bike? How about blipping the throttle and hanging onto the brakes with the same hand!
And I agree with Finn ^^^
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.