DarkSideDE

Should this or should this not be taught.

Today, I was at Roebling and Florida Citrus Region does not want to solo their blue without this skill.

Some instructors feel this is a racing skill and should not be necessary at a DE to be solo.

One instructor feels heel/toe is important, however, not for solo - but definitely for a person before they become an instructor.

Okay - comments please. I really am interested in opinions. Thank you.

mglobe

Wow, I'm amazed that there is any debate at all. Forgetting for a moment the benefit to the car, I just don't see how its possible to down-shift and not upset the weight distribution of the car without a throttle blip. Add any steering input at all, and it seems to me a down-shift without heel/toe throttle blip could end up being a spin if the speed is high enough. To me, it's exactly the type of fundamental skill drivers should be learning at a DE. jmho

Larry Herman

It is not possible to smoothly enter a corner still dragging the brakes with the powertrain engaged unless you can perform a proper downshift before the braking zone ends. It takes the ability to heel/toe to do that. I would not consider advancing anyone beyond blue (i.e. into the non-instructed group) unless they have mastered that skill. I do not see it as a requirement to move from green to blue.

mglobe

FWIW, I like the way you've put this better than I do my own response.

DrJupeman

H&T'ing is not a racing skill as much as a basic high performance driving skill. It is interesting to hear of a region requiring it for solo'ing. I kind of like that idea.

JackOlsen

I can't imagine any way heel-and-toe downshifting would be related to racing but not have a meaningful role in DE driving or time trialing. It's part of getting through a corner quickly. If you've got a manual transmission, you've gotta do it.

It's definitely not something I waste time on with first-time track drivers. But if you've gone out more than a handful of times, you're going to want to do it for the sake of your laptimes, your safety and the longevity of your drivetrain.

Newer cars make abrupt downshifts feel less detrimental to the drivetrain, but you're still making the wheels lurch the engine forward if you don't match revs.

Bryan Watts

ABSOLUTELY teach it in the classroom and then encourage students to master it on the street (a cloverleaf provides endless opportunities without drawing attention from cops). I don't know if I would have students try it for the first time on a hot track unless you're doing exercises (no brakes, one gear, etc) like we do in the lower run groups of BMW CCA.

Mark in Baltimore

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/317479-instructing-heel-and-toe.html

mglobe

OCben, is that you?

Mark in Baltimore

I'm not one of the cool kids, so I have no idea what that means. I do believe OCben was banned, yes?

hacker-pschorr

Best way to learn heal / toe driving? Own a car that does not idle, you pick it up pretty quick

jenk12m

darkside, what car and group were you in. i was there this weekend in a silver 997gt3.

i thought it was good that they wanted the drivers to be able to perform a proper heel/toe to move to white solo.

wanna911

While I agree with you guys point of view, there are some things that are arguable with this being a requirement for advanced driving approval.

#1 Most people in DE are no where near 10/10ths of the cars potential, and at 6,7/10ths you can shift easily and not upset the balance of the car too much and still go fast enough not to be a moving roadblock. In fact if you listen closely at club races you'll hear several racers that dont use it in some places that others do at various tracks. The result is that there is no corner that every racer blips the throttle on, so in theory, it cant be neccessary at every turn and in essence at any turn.

#2 It's not impossible to downshift without upsetting the balance of the car at all, if you have slowed down enough to where you are not in a high rpm range for the lower gear. It's not fast, but but not terribly slow either.

#3 Many people may be advanced and still driving stock cars with pedals that are more of a burden to hell/toe that to just skip it because of pedal placement and width.

#4 Final dillmma is do you now check ride all that people in the advanced group to check and then move people down, sounds pretty arduous to me, and if you dont then other people will cry foul.

#5 And as mentioned above, who wants to be in the car with students just learning how to do it so they can get in advanced solo.


With that being said, requiring someone to "know" how to do it, and policing them doing it is two different things. I remember once taking a year one camaro for a few laps at Road Atlanta and the pedals were WAY too far apart to blip, in fact I rode with a Panoz school instructor and racer. Niether one of us could get to that pedal, and I wear 13's, but that doesnt mean we didnt do some fast laps. Even though we "knew" how to, actually being able to was the difficulty. And making people "know" how to do something that doesnt "have" to be used is a bit over the top IMO.


But I welcome less people in the advanced group at any DE.

Bull

The Region that I run with most of the time requires the skill for movement to the advanced group (Black). It is best learned on the street, which most motivated students of HP driving do fairly quickly with repetition.

mglobe

Sorry Mark, just having some fun with you. OCben was banned recently, but I think is unbanned now. He was always telling folks (particularly the noobs) on the 997 board to search for stuff. His banishment had nothing to do with the search thing.